4 ms·

On “natural immunity” to Covid-19 (and every other vaccine-preventable disease)

10 points by _Microft 5y ago

h2odragon 5y ago
> that’s not what the invocation of “natural immunity” by COVID-19 contrarians and antivaxxers is about. Well, actually, it is. People are often arguing they don't need a vaccine because they already had COVID, not advocating for people to get COVID instead of the vaccine. When you have to falsely charecterize your opponents in order to crow about how stupid they are you're not likely to change any minds. But go ahead, make it "Science Believers" vs "stupid Rednecks". That's been the trend for a while; and when vaccines are no longer the hobby horse to ride there will be another.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  > you're not likely to change any minds The point of trite like this isn’t to change any minds, everybody knows you can’t do that by preaching to the choir. The point is to make yourself seem better, smarter, holier than the others. And what better way to do that than by diminishing the other? As a bonus you will make all your readers think they are better than the others as well and who doesn’t want that?
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Yes it's about signaling. But it's also more than that. It might not change minds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't instill an initial position. And it definitely prevents many people from even considering an alternative position. Look at the ivermectin controversy. It's an FDA approved medicine, listed as one of the most necessary in the world which has a Nobel prize for it's discovery. But how many (even educated) people won't take the time to even realize that, because it's been branded nothing more than "horse de-wormer" taken by gullible idiots who buy it from the feed & seed store? And you end up in a position where you can't even debate efficacy or ethical/philosophical questions re: policy and medical self-determination, but get stuck because the "more enlightened" side doesn't even realize it's real medicine, FDA approved and tested as safe, used all around the world regularly by human patients.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > Look at the ivermectin controversy. It's an FDA approved medicine ... a real medicine ... tested as safe. This is oversimplifying. A medicine is effective or not for particular conditions, not in general. FDA approval of drugs like this is "safe and effective" _for_ a particular use, not general "approval" for every purpose. As for safe, "the dose makes the poison". (1) The correct dose of Ivermectin is of course useful for control of parasites in humans and other animals such as horses, but it is not useful for COVID-19 (4). However people have in fact "bought Ivermectin from the feed store" (2) and self-dosed with the wrong amount, effectively poisoning themselves (3) for nothing (4). You can call this "gullible idiots" if you like, but it's sad that they were mislead on something so consequential. If Ivermectin was effective for COVID-19, then medical staff would be administering safe doses. Fortunately there are are drugs arriving that have demonstrated effectiveness against COVID-19 (5), there is no need to cling to Ivermectin 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison 2) https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/store-only-lets-you-buy-ivermectin-if-you-show-a-picture-with-your-horse/ https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/store-only-le... 3) https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/04/1034217306/ivermectin-overdose-exposure-cases-poison-control-centers https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/0... 4) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58170809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58170809 5) https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/11/health/molnupiravir-covid-19-antiviral-merck-request/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/11/health/molnupiravir-covid... https://www.ft.com/content/17cf953b-38b5-4862-814f-ad51f1066f19 https://www.ft.com/content/17cf953b-38b5-4862-814f-ad51f1066...
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        I didn’t see the headlines ‘people using an anti malaria drug against covid!’ All I saw was ‘people killing themselves using horse dewormer against covid!’.
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        Same here. I'm not getting the point that you are making though.
- sharemywin 5y ago
  I especially have a problem with mandating essential workers get the vaccine. So, you we're ok with their choice to work everyday for the first 12 months without a vaccine(because it wasn't available) But, now their choice isn't good enough?
- nojokes 5y ago
  Some people are, but most people, who claim it, are not. It has been already with other disease like having measles parties. There are people who claim that they are not afraid of the virus but refuse to get vaccinated. There is also mixing up of natural immunity and innate immunity. Many people claim that they do not need the vaccine because they have innate immunity (they usually using simply "immune system"). Unfortunately US does not recognize acquired immunity by being ill. It would be better to use different wording altogether: "vaccinated", "recovered".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

10 points by _Microft 5y ago

> that’s not what the invocation of “natural immunity” by COVID-19 contrarians and antivaxxers is about. Well, actually, it is. People are often arguing they don't need a vaccine because they already had COVID, not advocating for people to get COVID instead of the vaccine. When you have to falsely charecterize your opponents in order to crow about how stupid they are you're not likely to change any minds. But go ahead, make it "Science Believers" vs "stupid Rednecks". That's been the trend for a while; and when vaccines are no longer the hobby horse to ride there will be another.

tinus_hn 5y ago
> you're not likely to change any minds The point of trite like this isn’t to change any minds, everybody knows you can’t do that by preaching to the choir. The point is to make yourself seem better, smarter, holier than the others. And what better way to do that than by diminishing the other? As a bonus you will make all your readers think they are better than the others as well and who doesn’t want that?
- beerandt 5y ago
  Yes it's about signaling. But it's also more than that. It might not change minds, but that doesn't mean it doesn't instill an initial position. And it definitely prevents many people from even considering an alternative position. Look at the ivermectin controversy. It's an FDA approved medicine, listed as one of the most necessary in the world which has a Nobel prize for it's discovery. But how many (even educated) people won't take the time to even realize that, because it's been branded nothing more than "horse de-wormer" taken by gullible idiots who buy it from the feed & seed store? And you end up in a position where you can't even debate efficacy or ethical/philosophical questions re: policy and medical self-determination, but get stuck because the "more enlightened" side doesn't even realize it's real medicine, FDA approved and tested as safe, used all around the world regularly by human patients.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > Look at the ivermectin controversy. It's an FDA approved medicine ... a real medicine ... tested as safe. This is oversimplifying. A medicine is effective or not for particular conditions, not in general. FDA approval of drugs like this is "safe and effective" _for_ a particular use, not general "approval" for every purpose. As for safe, "the dose makes the poison". (1) The correct dose of Ivermectin is of course useful for control of parasites in humans and other animals such as horses, but it is not useful for COVID-19 (4). However people have in fact "bought Ivermectin from the feed store" (2) and self-dosed with the wrong amount, effectively poisoning themselves (3) for nothing (4). You can call this "gullible idiots" if you like, but it's sad that they were mislead on something so consequential. If Ivermectin was effective for COVID-19, then medical staff would be administering safe doses. Fortunately there are are drugs arriving that have demonstrated effectiveness against COVID-19 (5), there is no need to cling to Ivermectin 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison 2) https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/store-only-lets-you-buy-ivermectin-if-you-show-a-picture-with-your-horse/ https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/store-only-le... 3) https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/04/1034217306/ivermectin-overdose-exposure-cases-poison-control-centers https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/0... 4) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58170809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58170809 5) https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/11/health/molnupiravir-covid-19-antiviral-merck-request/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/11/health/molnupiravir-covid... https://www.ft.com/content/17cf953b-38b5-4862-814f-ad51f1066f19 https://www.ft.com/content/17cf953b-38b5-4862-814f-ad51f1066...
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      I didn’t see the headlines ‘people using an anti malaria drug against covid!’ All I saw was ‘people killing themselves using horse dewormer against covid!’.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        Same here. I'm not getting the point that you are making though.
sharemywin 5y ago
I especially have a problem with mandating essential workers get the vaccine. So, you we're ok with their choice to work everyday for the first 12 months without a vaccine(because it wasn't available) But, now their choice isn't good enough?
nojokes 5y ago
Some people are, but most people, who claim it, are not. It has been already with other disease like having measles parties. There are people who claim that they are not afraid of the virus but refuse to get vaccinated. There is also mixing up of natural immunity and innate immunity. Many people claim that they do not need the vaccine because they have innate immunity (they usually using simply "immune system"). Unfortunately US does not recognize acquired immunity by being ill. It would be better to use different wording altogether: "vaccinated", "recovered".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]