5 ms·

The "West" has donated 100s of millions of vaccine doses to other countries. The US alone has donated 176M doses. Hardly my definition of "hyper selfish".

donw 5y ago
Are you sure about "donated"? My understanding is that Israel paid well above market to go to the front of the line, Japan is definitely paying for doses... do you have links to authoritative primary sources on this (e.g., not a news organization or activist group)? (I don't know, so I'm actually curious here)
- fastball 5y ago
  https://www.gavi.org/covax-facility https://www.gavi.org/covax-facility https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/
- Thorrez 5y ago
  Rich countries (e.g. US, Israel, Japan) paid extra to get doses first, then once they had enough, the US (and probably other countries) paid for doses for poorer countries. https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ E.g. (first alphabetically (Africa > Angola)): https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/angola/ https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/angola/ >The United States continues to make great strides in its efforts to distribute safe and effective vaccines globally. We are happy to announce our donation of 1,182,870 doses of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine to Angola on August 24 with our partners GAVI and the African Union.
  - donw 5y ago
    Excellent, thank you!
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  What does Israel paying above market rate to "go to the front of the line" or Japan "paying for doses" have to do with whether other countries are donating doses to impoverished nations? > do you have links to authoritative original sources on this (e.g., not a news organization ...What. The. What.
  - beebmam 5y ago
    When has ethics meant anything in international affairs? Sorry to burst your bubble, but every nation is out for its own best interests, which sometimes align with other nations' interests.
    - fastball 5y ago
      Don't understand the relevance of this comment.
  - hammock 5y ago
    >...What. The. What. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
- Hamuko 5y ago
  Why wouldn't Japan be paying for its doses? We're talking about a country rich enough to be in the G7.
- fsloth 5y ago
  Israel and Japan are quite well off and don't need donations. For reference good place to start is observing their nominal GDP (not an absolute measure but good first guess gauge). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... The countries that would need vaccine donations can be generally found at the end of the said list with least GDP:s.
ryan_lane 5y ago
Q: Why do the vaccines need to be donated? A: Because western countries hold patents on the vaccines and we prioritize profit over lives.
- swarnie 5y ago
  That's entirely false. The AZ/British vaccine is being provided at cost https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/28/astrazeneca-vaccine-deserves-celebration-not-scorn https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/28/astrazeneca... > AstraZeneca is one of the shining stars of the pandemic. Not only did it produce a vaccine where other big players failed, the UK-Swedish company has pledged to sell it at cost until it is able to declare the pandemic over. If countries still can't afford it they are being given away https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-begins-donating-millions-of-covid-19-vaccines-overseas https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-begins-donating-millio... > the UK has pledged to donate 100 million vaccines overseas by June 2022, 80 million of which will go to COVAX
  - ryan_lane 5y ago
    That's one vaccine and one country, and you're not arguing against my point, but shifting the discussion back to donations. The number of vaccines being donated are not even close to sufficient to protect the countries without the means to produce the vaccines. Many countries could produce these vaccines, but are not legally allowed to because we're protecting the patents, so that companies can make profit on them. Without patent protection, they wouldn't be the only companies manufacturing them. It's also strange to say it's entirely false, while giving one example in which the vaccines are being given at cost. Many of the vaccines are not. In some cases the companies are not profiting, in other cases they are.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Why don’t countries with no vaccines develop and produce their own? Ah, that’s right, because they don’t have cutting edge pharmaceutical industry. Now, isn’t it an interesting coincidence that cutting edge pharmaceutical industry exists precisely in those places where most profit is to be made on drugs?
londons_explore 5y ago
It's an odd kind of donation though... Many of those countries are perfectly able to afford their own doses... But are blocked from doing so in favour of being given donated doses, that normally come with political strings attached. Some would say it's a way for the west to buy influence rather cheaply.
- fastball 5y ago
  Which countries are you referring to that have been prevented from purchasing doses and are only allowed to accept donations with strings attached?
- Thorrez 5y ago
  What do you mean by blocked? They don't want to pay because they want to get them for free? Or is there some supply problem where sellers refuse to sell to them?
  - geysersam 5y ago
    I think he means thing like the governments forcing producers to fulfill their contracts with them before exporting and fulfilling contracts elsewhere. [1]https://www.ft.com/content/82fa8fb4-a867-4005-b6c2-a79969139119 https://www.ft.com/content/82fa8fb4-a867-4005-b6c2-a79969139... [2]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56529868.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56529868.amp
croes 5y ago
The U.S. blocked the export of substances needed for the production of vaccines. A question, if I donate after I have had enough am I being selfish? If I donate food after I have eaten my fill, am I being noble or selfish?
- skinkestek 5y ago
  > If I donate food after I have eaten my fill, am I being noble or selfish? If you could have sold it instead? Maybe not noble but also probably kind to some degree whatever your motivations are for being kind.
- fastball 5y ago
  A question in response to your question: is putting on your own air mask first when the plane cabin loses pressure, and then helping others with their masks noble or selfish? Giving someone something you have no obligation to give them for free is literally the definition of generous. It is the opposite of selfish. This doesn't change if you take care of yourself first.
  - croes 5y ago
    You can't simply compare a single person with nations. And you aren't only putting your mask on first, you are preventing others from getting theirs. And if the west if obligated to help the poorer countries is a different discussion, especially of you consider how it takes care of them when it comes to their natural resources. Exploiting with the left and giving with the right, doesn't make you generous.
  - croes 5y ago
    And don't forget the whole patent issue, why not suspend the patent during the pandemic, then fewer donations would also be needed.

donw 5y ago

Are you sure about "donated"? My understanding is that Israel paid well above market to go to the front of the line, Japan is definitely paying for doses... do you have links to authoritative primary sources on this (e.g., not a news organization or activist group)? (I don't know, so I'm actually curious here)

fastball 5y ago
https://www.gavi.org/covax-facility https://www.gavi.org/covax-facility https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/
Thorrez 5y ago
Rich countries (e.g. US, Israel, Japan) paid extra to get doses first, then once they had enough, the US (and probably other countries) paid for doses for poorer countries. https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/ E.g. (first alphabetically (Africa > Angola)): https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/angola/ https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/angola/ >The United States continues to make great strides in its efforts to distribute safe and effective vaccines globally. We are happy to announce our donation of 1,182,870 doses of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine to Angola on August 24 with our partners GAVI and the African Union.
- donw 5y ago
  Excellent, thank you!
KennyBlanken 5y ago
What does Israel paying above market rate to "go to the front of the line" or Japan "paying for doses" have to do with whether other countries are donating doses to impoverished nations? > do you have links to authoritative original sources on this (e.g., not a news organization ...What. The. What.
- beebmam 5y ago
  When has ethics meant anything in international affairs? Sorry to burst your bubble, but every nation is out for its own best interests, which sometimes align with other nations' interests.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Don't understand the relevance of this comment.
- hammock 5y ago
  >...What. The. What. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
Hamuko 5y ago
Why wouldn't Japan be paying for its doses? We're talking about a country rich enough to be in the G7.
fsloth 5y ago
Israel and Japan are quite well off and don't need donations. For reference good place to start is observing their nominal GDP (not an absolute measure but good first guess gauge). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... The countries that would need vaccine donations can be generally found at the end of the said list with least GDP:s.

ryan_lane 5y ago

Q: Why do the vaccines need to be donated? A: Because western countries hold patents on the vaccines and we prioritize profit over lives.

swarnie 5y ago
That's entirely false. The AZ/British vaccine is being provided at cost https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/28/astrazeneca-vaccine-deserves-celebration-not-scorn https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/28/astrazeneca... > AstraZeneca is one of the shining stars of the pandemic. Not only did it produce a vaccine where other big players failed, the UK-Swedish company has pledged to sell it at cost until it is able to declare the pandemic over. If countries still can't afford it they are being given away https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-begins-donating-millions-of-covid-19-vaccines-overseas https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-begins-donating-millio... > the UK has pledged to donate 100 million vaccines overseas by June 2022, 80 million of which will go to COVAX
- ryan_lane 5y ago
  That's one vaccine and one country, and you're not arguing against my point, but shifting the discussion back to donations. The number of vaccines being donated are not even close to sufficient to protect the countries without the means to produce the vaccines. Many countries could produce these vaccines, but are not legally allowed to because we're protecting the patents, so that companies can make profit on them. Without patent protection, they wouldn't be the only companies manufacturing them. It's also strange to say it's entirely false, while giving one example in which the vaccines are being given at cost. Many of the vaccines are not. In some cases the companies are not profiting, in other cases they are.
xyzzyz 5y ago
Why don’t countries with no vaccines develop and produce their own? Ah, that’s right, because they don’t have cutting edge pharmaceutical industry. Now, isn’t it an interesting coincidence that cutting edge pharmaceutical industry exists precisely in those places where most profit is to be made on drugs?

londons_explore 5y ago

It's an odd kind of donation though... Many of those countries are perfectly able to afford their own doses... But are blocked from doing so in favour of being given donated doses, that normally come with political strings attached. Some would say it's a way for the west to buy influence rather cheaply.

fastball 5y ago
Which countries are you referring to that have been prevented from purchasing doses and are only allowed to accept donations with strings attached?
Thorrez 5y ago
What do you mean by blocked? They don't want to pay because they want to get them for free? Or is there some supply problem where sellers refuse to sell to them?
- geysersam 5y ago
  I think he means thing like the governments forcing producers to fulfill their contracts with them before exporting and fulfilling contracts elsewhere. [1]https://www.ft.com/content/82fa8fb4-a867-4005-b6c2-a79969139119 https://www.ft.com/content/82fa8fb4-a867-4005-b6c2-a79969139... [2]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56529868.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56529868.amp

croes 5y ago

The U.S. blocked the export of substances needed for the production of vaccines. A question, if I donate after I have had enough am I being selfish? If I donate food after I have eaten my fill, am I being noble or selfish?

skinkestek 5y ago
> If I donate food after I have eaten my fill, am I being noble or selfish? If you could have sold it instead? Maybe not noble but also probably kind to some degree whatever your motivations are for being kind.
fastball 5y ago
A question in response to your question: is putting on your own air mask first when the plane cabin loses pressure, and then helping others with their masks noble or selfish? Giving someone something you have no obligation to give them for free is literally the definition of generous. It is the opposite of selfish. This doesn't change if you take care of yourself first.
- croes 5y ago
  You can't simply compare a single person with nations. And you aren't only putting your mask on first, you are preventing others from getting theirs. And if the west if obligated to help the poorer countries is a different discussion, especially of you consider how it takes care of them when it comes to their natural resources. Exploiting with the left and giving with the right, doesn't make you generous.
- croes 5y ago
  And don't forget the whole patent issue, why not suspend the patent during the pandemic, then fewer donations would also be needed.