7 ms·

He allegedly initiated the whole thing, which is presumably a crime on its own. He allegedly sent a package to a foreign government offering to sell them class

He allegedly initiated the whole thing, which is presumably a crime on its own. He allegedly sent a package to a foreign government offering to sell them classified info, and the foreign government gave that package to the FBI. EDIT: Also the initial package contained classified info, which doesn't help.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Suppose I tell you - give me $50,000 and I will assassinate the president. If i never had intention of doing so, and just meant to keep the money, i dont know what crime this would be. If you wanted to sue me foe fraud, you would be admitting to hiring an assasin
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > Suppose I tell you - give me $50,000 and I will assassinate the president. There is a specific law for exactly that, however, making threats against the president. And those threats do not actually have to be communicated to the president in order for them to be illegal.
- aahortwwy 5y ago
  Not an expert, but I think different rules apply to holders of security clearances.
- lazide 5y ago
  Well, if anyone desired they could arrest you both for conspiracy, since ‘I was just joking’ is a pretty hard defense to prove. If you had a bunch of documents showing you were actually not intending to do it and just scamming, and they were all solidly timestamped maybe. If you had an independent co-conspirator who could attest, also maybe. I believe that generally folks don’t do this type of thing often because the type of person that would pay you $50k in this situation might also be very prone to just murder you if they thought you were playing with them hah Either way, no fun for anyone.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - pseingatl 5y ago
    Except for narcotics conspiracies (Title 21), plain old Title 18 conspiracies require an act "in furtherance" of the conspiracy by ONE of the conspirators. Buying a map of the area around the bank your team plans to rob is sufficient. (A drug conspiracy requires no "act in furtherance.") So if you are "just joking" with your team and one of them takes your joke seriously and purchases bank robbery supplies or puts an SD card into a sandwich you are liable.
    - lazide 5y ago
      Wouldn’t receiving payment count?
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "If you had a bunch of documents showing you were actually not intending to do it and just scamming, and they were all solidly timestamped maybe." I think the most solid proof thats its not a geuine conspiracy would be A) if you lied to the person giving you the money, about owning a gun or something else relevant, showing your intentions weren't genuine B) showing the conspiracy is not credible, i.e. you are conspiring ro use a sniper rifle but you don't k ow how to shoot.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      A transaction where you lied about your side of the deal is still fraud, and yes that can still be charged by the state independently. Also conspiracy doesn't require you to be proficient at executing your plan but rather the intention and motivation and opportunity to do so. You can still shoot a gun and cause harm even if you don't know how to shoot, and there's no way to really prove you don't either.
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  If you are the FBI, like in this case, admitting your part would not be much of a hurdle - unless you crossed over into entrapment territory, and even then the agent wouldn't go to prison for entrapment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- leosarev 5y ago
  I don't know how things works in USA, but it definitely a fraud i.e. in Russia.
- caffeine 5y ago
  This would be illegal. You have credibly expressed an intention to murder someone. However, if during your trial you could somehow prove that you had planned not to actually harm anyone, that would certainly reduce the severity of the crime. Expressing a credible threat of violence is a crime in most countries, I believe.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "credibly expressed an intention" 'Credible' is a key word though, a random joe who doesn't own a gun is not credible to assasinate a President.
- manigandham 5y ago
  This is called conspiracy. [1] How intentional, motivated, and opportunistic you were, and what actions you actually undertook all add up to the offense you committed. A random person saying they'll assassinate the president probably won't be a serious threat, but if you have military clearance, access to secrets, show intent to trade those secrets, and initiate communications with foreign powers then that's more than enough to prosecute. Saying you were "just joking" to scam some money isn't much of a defense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)
- pseingatl 5y ago
  This is why it is so hard to catch arsonists. You pay in advance and if they don't torch the building, a conviction is very difficult.
  - mkl 5y ago
    Well if they don't torch any buildings, they're not arsonists. They might be guilty of conspiracy or fraud or something though.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It's all in good faith, and you can't trust criminals because, well, criminals lol. That said, on the other hand, if someone wants repeat business they will do what you pay them for. It's why ransomware works - if a ransomware guy doesn't unlock things after being paid, nobody will pay ransomware guys. TL;DR like most business, it's based on trust. Anyway, anyone want to buy some secret documents? Just send me 50K worth of bitcoin, you can trust me.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
withinboredom 5y ago
If they turned him over to the FBI, I think it's safe to say that whatever government he contacted already had those documents.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

Suppose I tell you - give me $50,000 and I will assassinate the president. If i never had intention of doing so, and just meant to keep the money, i dont know what crime this would be. If you wanted to sue me foe fraud, you would be admitting to hiring an assasin

rootusrootus 5y ago
> Suppose I tell you - give me $50,000 and I will assassinate the president. There is a specific law for exactly that, however, making threats against the president. And those threats do not actually have to be communicated to the president in order for them to be illegal.
aahortwwy 5y ago
Not an expert, but I think different rules apply to holders of security clearances.
lazide 5y ago
Well, if anyone desired they could arrest you both for conspiracy, since ‘I was just joking’ is a pretty hard defense to prove. If you had a bunch of documents showing you were actually not intending to do it and just scamming, and they were all solidly timestamped maybe. If you had an independent co-conspirator who could attest, also maybe. I believe that generally folks don’t do this type of thing often because the type of person that would pay you $50k in this situation might also be very prone to just murder you if they thought you were playing with them hah Either way, no fun for anyone.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pseingatl 5y ago
  Except for narcotics conspiracies (Title 21), plain old Title 18 conspiracies require an act "in furtherance" of the conspiracy by ONE of the conspirators. Buying a map of the area around the bank your team plans to rob is sufficient. (A drug conspiracy requires no "act in furtherance.") So if you are "just joking" with your team and one of them takes your joke seriously and purchases bank robbery supplies or puts an SD card into a sandwich you are liable.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Wouldn’t receiving payment count?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "If you had a bunch of documents showing you were actually not intending to do it and just scamming, and they were all solidly timestamped maybe." I think the most solid proof thats its not a geuine conspiracy would be A) if you lied to the person giving you the money, about owning a gun or something else relevant, showing your intentions weren't genuine B) showing the conspiracy is not credible, i.e. you are conspiring ro use a sniper rifle but you don't k ow how to shoot.
  - manigandham 5y ago
    A transaction where you lied about your side of the deal is still fraud, and yes that can still be charged by the state independently. Also conspiracy doesn't require you to be proficient at executing your plan but rather the intention and motivation and opportunity to do so. You can still shoot a gun and cause harm even if you don't know how to shoot, and there's no way to really prove you don't either.
rndgermandude 5y ago
If you are the FBI, like in this case, admitting your part would not be much of a hurdle - unless you crossed over into entrapment territory, and even then the agent wouldn't go to prison for entrapment.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
leosarev 5y ago
I don't know how things works in USA, but it definitely a fraud i.e. in Russia.
caffeine 5y ago
This would be illegal. You have credibly expressed an intention to murder someone. However, if during your trial you could somehow prove that you had planned not to actually harm anyone, that would certainly reduce the severity of the crime. Expressing a credible threat of violence is a crime in most countries, I believe.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "credibly expressed an intention" 'Credible' is a key word though, a random joe who doesn't own a gun is not credible to assasinate a President.
manigandham 5y ago
This is called conspiracy. [1] How intentional, motivated, and opportunistic you were, and what actions you actually undertook all add up to the offense you committed. A random person saying they'll assassinate the president probably won't be a serious threat, but if you have military clearance, access to secrets, show intent to trade those secrets, and initiate communications with foreign powers then that's more than enough to prosecute. Saying you were "just joking" to scam some money isn't much of a defense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)
pseingatl 5y ago
This is why it is so hard to catch arsonists. You pay in advance and if they don't torch the building, a conviction is very difficult.
- mkl 5y ago
  Well if they don't torch any buildings, they're not arsonists. They might be guilty of conspiracy or fraud or something though.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It's all in good faith, and you can't trust criminals because, well, criminals lol. That said, on the other hand, if someone wants repeat business they will do what you pay them for. It's why ransomware works - if a ransomware guy doesn't unlock things after being paid, nobody will pay ransomware guys. TL;DR like most business, it's based on trust. Anyway, anyone want to buy some secret documents? Just send me 50K worth of bitcoin, you can trust me.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

withinboredom 5y ago

If they turned him over to the FBI, I think it's safe to say that whatever government he contacted already had those documents.