4 ms·

Ah yes the "just the facts please" argument, regardless of context. Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and

Ah yes the "just the facts please" argument, regardless of context. Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and has ongoing licensing requirements. On one hand, kudos to the OP for using median rather than average, but still a single number to represent all teach jobs in a country with 300M people seems a bit weak. There's a lot of stories out there, and it's just not being captured here. "Data data everywhere, but not an ounce of wisdom within sight" -- old proverb

adolph 5y ago
Lots of occupations require ongoing licensing requirements. What’s the big deal? For example barbers in Ohio need 8 CE credits per year. (No connection, just chose a middle of the road state at random) https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-EDUCATION-BARBER https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-...
- eesmith 5y ago
  willcipriano's reference was to "Person with bachelors degree". ryanobjc's objection is that the reference should be "Person with bachelors degree in a job which requires a state license and CE requirements." FWIW, your reference appears to be 8 CE credits every two years = 4 credits per year for barbers. https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_teachers.html https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_... says educators need 18 units every 4 or 5 years, which is also about 4 credits per year. Getting to the main topic, 4 credits/year is about 40 hours/year. When do educators do that? Is it paid time or unpaid time? BTW, many teachers have a Master's degree, so I think using a bachelor's degree as the baseline isn't correct.
  - adolph 5y ago
    ryanobjc: > Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and has ongoing licensing requirements. Plenty of occupations as a class or specific jobs have education, certification and licensing requirements. Teaching is not an outlier in that regard. The barber is just one example of a mundane ongoing requirement. When do educators fulfill their CE credits? My guess is whenever they want as long as it happens on time. They can be grown ups like the rest of the world, conduct their business and move on. What percentage of teachers have a Master's degree? If it isn't a job requirement, why would it matter? If there are excess numbers of people holding Masters degrees and they work in occupations not requiring a Masters degree, that is a problem between them and their granting institution's accreditation body. The smart accreditation bodies restrict supply in order to optimize the workforce size and skillset to demand. The nonselective ones that produce skills in excess of demand are essentially diploma mills or vanity projects. At best they make entry into non-Masters degree fields harder for those without the resources to obtain a Masters. At worst they wind up being a giant economic drag through student debt that won't ever match income expectations.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      > Plenty of occupations as a class or specific jobs have education, certification and licensing requirements. Completely agreed. So we should expect their salaries to be higher on average than jobs with the same education requirement but without certification and licensing requirements, right? > If it isn't a job requirement Some districts pay more for teachers with a Master's degree. Eg, https://www.teachingdegree.org/states/florida/ https://www.teachingdegree.org/states/florida/ says "Florida teacher salary can increase to $59,050 for educators with a master's degree and 20+ years of experience." The smart accreditation bodies optimize workforce competency by incentivizing increased relevant training. > My guess is whenever they want as long as it happens on time. Sure. But I'm making a rather different point. As you likely recall, willcipriano compared a teacher's summer break as being equivalent to "bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid." If the teacher does a week of continuing education during the summer, then that comparison (and calculation) is invalid, because the teacher is not "off".
      - adolph 5y ago
        Continuing Education: Summers are still “off” even if CE is performed then if CE is considered a requirement of the profession not tied to a particular employment agreement. Funding for CE or anything else doesn’t come from magic. It comes from the value generated by a service provider. An employer “providing” CE funding and/or time is really just skimming money that could be provider paycheck into CE. There may be pragmatic advantages to this such as volume pricing or tax rules. My guess is that CE is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. Should one expect occupations with higher licensing and CE requirements to have higher salaries than those without? Would the difference in pay be undetectable because it’s within the natural range of variability? In terms of producer-consumer relations licensing acts as a signal of base quality for products that are difficult for consumers to evaluate. This may not mean that consumers will pay more for it if there is no option of a lower cost unlicensed product compared to a higher cost licensed one. In the absence of alternatives then it would be impossible to know what an unlicensed valuation would be.
        eesmith 5y ago

adolph 5y ago

Lots of occupations require ongoing licensing requirements. What’s the big deal? For example barbers in Ohio need 8 CE credits per year. (No connection, just chose a middle of the road state at random) https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-EDUCATION-BARBER https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-...

eesmith 5y ago
willcipriano's reference was to "Person with bachelors degree". ryanobjc's objection is that the reference should be "Person with bachelors degree in a job which requires a state license and CE requirements." FWIW, your reference appears to be 8 CE credits every two years = 4 credits per year for barbers. https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_teachers.html https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_... says educators need 18 units every 4 or 5 years, which is also about 4 credits per year. Getting to the main topic, 4 credits/year is about 40 hours/year. When do educators do that? Is it paid time or unpaid time? BTW, many teachers have a Master's degree, so I think using a bachelor's degree as the baseline isn't correct.
- adolph 5y ago
  ryanobjc: > Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and has ongoing licensing requirements. Plenty of occupations as a class or specific jobs have education, certification and licensing requirements. Teaching is not an outlier in that regard. The barber is just one example of a mundane ongoing requirement. When do educators fulfill their CE credits? My guess is whenever they want as long as it happens on time. They can be grown ups like the rest of the world, conduct their business and move on. What percentage of teachers have a Master's degree? If it isn't a job requirement, why would it matter? If there are excess numbers of people holding Masters degrees and they work in occupations not requiring a Masters degree, that is a problem between them and their granting institution's accreditation body. The smart accreditation bodies restrict supply in order to optimize the workforce size and skillset to demand. The nonselective ones that produce skills in excess of demand are essentially diploma mills or vanity projects. At best they make entry into non-Masters degree fields harder for those without the resources to obtain a Masters. At worst they wind up being a giant economic drag through student debt that won't ever match income expectations.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    > Plenty of occupations as a class or specific jobs have education, certification and licensing requirements. Completely agreed. So we should expect their salaries to be higher on average than jobs with the same education requirement but without certification and licensing requirements, right? > If it isn't a job requirement Some districts pay more for teachers with a Master's degree. Eg, https://www.teachingdegree.org/states/florida/ https://www.teachingdegree.org/states/florida/ says "Florida teacher salary can increase to $59,050 for educators with a master's degree and 20+ years of experience." The smart accreditation bodies optimize workforce competency by incentivizing increased relevant training. > My guess is whenever they want as long as it happens on time. Sure. But I'm making a rather different point. As you likely recall, willcipriano compared a teacher's summer break as being equivalent to "bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid." If the teacher does a week of continuing education during the summer, then that comparison (and calculation) is invalid, because the teacher is not "off".
    - adolph 5y ago
      Continuing Education: Summers are still “off” even if CE is performed then if CE is considered a requirement of the profession not tied to a particular employment agreement. Funding for CE or anything else doesn’t come from magic. It comes from the value generated by a service provider. An employer “providing” CE funding and/or time is really just skimming money that could be provider paycheck into CE. There may be pragmatic advantages to this such as volume pricing or tax rules. My guess is that CE is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things. Should one expect occupations with higher licensing and CE requirements to have higher salaries than those without? Would the difference in pay be undetectable because it’s within the natural range of variability? In terms of producer-consumer relations licensing acts as a signal of base quality for products that are difficult for consumers to evaluate. This may not mean that consumers will pay more for it if there is no option of a lower cost unlicensed product compared to a higher cost licensed one. In the absence of alternatives then it would be impossible to know what an unlicensed valuation would be.
      - eesmith 5y ago