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Median pay in the US: High school teacher: $62,870[0] Middle school teacher: $60,810[1] Elementary school teacher: $60,660[2] Person with bachelors degree:

Median pay in the US: High school teacher: $62,870[0] Middle school teacher: $60,810[1] Elementary school teacher: $60,660[2] Person with bachelors degree: $72,830[3] Person with bachelors degree if they took summers off unpaid: $58,264[4] [0]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-... [1]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middle-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/middl... [2]https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kinde... [3]https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/article/bachelors-degree-outlook.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/article/bachelors-deg... [4]Summer vacation is 2.5 months. $72,830 * .80 = $58,264 Edit: cleaned up confusing language around averages

coolspot 5y ago
At least in California, teachers also get pension that is equal to their salary.
- RhysU 5y ago
  This is underappreciated. Think about what contributions one has to make to a self-funded retirement plan to acquire a pension equivalent to that available to teachers.
  - RhysU 5y ago
    To expand, seriously, pretend that you are buying an annuity providing a guaranteed, life-long annual payout equivalent to a teacher's salary in your town. It's a slug of cash that will make you blush. For example, https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/investing/annuity-calculator.aspx https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/investing/annuity-calcu... tells me that a $30K/year annuity good for 30 years will require more than $500K of principal at a 4% growth rate. This is a coarse approximation.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sundaeofshock 5y ago
What’s the point that you are trying to make here? Are you suggesting that teachers in the United States are overpaid?
- willcipriano 5y ago
  Providing the info for others to decide for themselves, personally I wouldn't call them underpaid or overpaid, the compensation seems in line with the rest of the market for their level of education.
- baron816 5y ago
  Perhaps that schools should just be open year round? That would also be a huge benefit to working parents (particularly mothers) who, you know, don’t get summers off.
- ryanobjc 5y ago
  Ah yes the "just the facts please" argument, regardless of context. Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and has ongoing licensing requirements. On one hand, kudos to the OP for using median rather than average, but still a single number to represent all teach jobs in a country with 300M people seems a bit weak. There's a lot of stories out there, and it's just not being captured here. "Data data everywhere, but not an ounce of wisdom within sight" -- old proverb
  - adolph 5y ago
    Lots of occupations require ongoing licensing requirements. What’s the big deal? For example barbers in Ohio need 8 CE credits per year. (No connection, just chose a middle of the road state at random) https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-EDUCATION-BARBER https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-...
    - eesmith 5y ago
      willcipriano's reference was to "Person with bachelors degree". ryanobjc's objection is that the reference should be "Person with bachelors degree in a job which requires a state license and CE requirements." FWIW, your reference appears to be 8 CE credits every two years = 4 credits per year for barbers. https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_teachers.html https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_... says educators need 18 units every 4 or 5 years, which is also about 4 credits per year. Getting to the main topic, 4 credits/year is about 40 hours/year. When do educators do that? Is it paid time or unpaid time? BTW, many teachers have a Master's degree, so I think using a bachelor's degree as the baseline isn't correct.
bsanr 5y ago
Teachers don't have summers off. They engage in work-related training, administrative duties, and other labor (e.g., teaching summer school courses). They're also required to pay for far more of their required equipment than other professions. Only $250 of school supplies can be deducted if filing with the standard deduction. This is a case of "just presenting the data" with a comically obvious agenda (per what's missing).
- kyleee 5y ago
  Teaching summer school is paid, and various training are generally optional and/or paid. "Administrative duties" is nebulous. Many do pay for various school supplies out of pocket, and I agree they should be reimbursed or have access to greater deductions. They definitely have summers off though, so it is very odd to claim that they don't. It's plainly described in the employment contract in a traditional summers off (non-year round) schedule
  - eesmith 5y ago
    The median pay includes those who teach summer school and earn extra money. Therefore, median pay for teachers cannot be equivalent to someone with a bachelors degree and unpaid summers off. Furthermore, the baseline should not be calendar days but hours worked. As willcipriano's own reference #1 points out, teachers "may also work evenings and weekends to prepare lessons and grade papers." If teachers spend their afternoons doing extracurricular activities, and evenings and weekends for grading lesson planning, giving a 55 hour week[1], while the average for someone with a bachelors degree is 40 hours[2], then the HS teacher makes ~15% less per hour than the hypothetical median bachelors degree holder. [3] [1] https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_ful... (from 9 years ago) says teachers spend 10 hours, 40 minutes at work. [2] https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-average-hours-per-week-worked-in-the-us-2060631 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-average-hours-... says "Those with a bachelor’s degree or higher worked 8.0 hours per day, while those with a high school diploma worked the most on an average day: 8.2 hours." [3] HS teacher, $62870 / (39 weeks * 55 hours/week) = $30.40/hour. Median bachelor's degree holder: $72830 / (50 weeks * 40 hours/week) = $36.42/hour. (36.42 - 30.42) / 36.42 = 16.5%.
eesmith 5y ago
Your reference [0] under "Work Environment" says teachers have 2 months of summer holidays, not 2.5. $72,830 * 10/12 = $60,691. I couldn't tell from the data at [0] if that wage included all income for a high school teacher (eg, the teacher works during the summer for a non-school job, and that income is included in the wage), or only the teaching-related income. The "Teachers’ work patterns: when, where, and how much do U.S. teachers work" from the BLS, at https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf , 45% of teachers work in July, and more likely than similar professionals to have multiple jobs. Assuming 50% education-related work during summer (instead of 0% work) means the comparable is: $72,830 * 11/12 = $66,760 which has high-school teachers as 6% underpaid, and the others as 9% underpaid. Many people have studied this question, resulting in publications with conclusions which are all over the place, especially when looking at think-tank publications and other non-peer-reviewed literature. I have no belief that a simple analysis using the numbers you presented gives a reliable understanding.

coolspot 5y ago

At least in California, teachers also get pension that is equal to their salary.

RhysU 5y ago
This is underappreciated. Think about what contributions one has to make to a self-funded retirement plan to acquire a pension equivalent to that available to teachers.
- RhysU 5y ago
  To expand, seriously, pretend that you are buying an annuity providing a guaranteed, life-long annual payout equivalent to a teacher's salary in your town. It's a slug of cash that will make you blush. For example, https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/investing/annuity-calculator.aspx https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/investing/annuity-calcu... tells me that a $30K/year annuity good for 30 years will require more than $500K of principal at a 4% growth rate. This is a coarse approximation.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sundaeofshock 5y ago

What’s the point that you are trying to make here? Are you suggesting that teachers in the United States are overpaid?

willcipriano 5y ago
Providing the info for others to decide for themselves, personally I wouldn't call them underpaid or overpaid, the compensation seems in line with the rest of the market for their level of education.
baron816 5y ago
Perhaps that schools should just be open year round? That would also be a huge benefit to working parents (particularly mothers) who, you know, don’t get summers off.
ryanobjc 5y ago
Ah yes the "just the facts please" argument, regardless of context. Turns out getting a teacher cred is a little bit more than "just" getting a undergrad, and has ongoing licensing requirements. On one hand, kudos to the OP for using median rather than average, but still a single number to represent all teach jobs in a country with 300M people seems a bit weak. There's a lot of stories out there, and it's just not being captured here. "Data data everywhere, but not an ounce of wisdom within sight" -- old proverb
- adolph 5y ago
  Lots of occupations require ongoing licensing requirements. What’s the big deal? For example barbers in Ohio need 8 CE credits per year. (No connection, just chose a middle of the road state at random) https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-EDUCATION-BARBER https://cos.ohio.gov/CONTINUING-EDUCATION/BARBER/CONTINUING-...
  - eesmith 5y ago
    willcipriano's reference was to "Person with bachelors degree". ryanobjc's objection is that the reference should be "Person with bachelors degree in a job which requires a state license and CE requirements." FWIW, your reference appears to be 8 CE credits every two years = 4 credits per year for barbers. https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_teachers.html https://learn.org/articles/ohio_certification_licensure_for_... says educators need 18 units every 4 or 5 years, which is also about 4 credits per year. Getting to the main topic, 4 credits/year is about 40 hours/year. When do educators do that? Is it paid time or unpaid time? BTW, many teachers have a Master's degree, so I think using a bachelor's degree as the baseline isn't correct.

bsanr 5y ago

Teachers don't have summers off. They engage in work-related training, administrative duties, and other labor (e.g., teaching summer school courses). They're also required to pay for far more of their required equipment than other professions. Only $250 of school supplies can be deducted if filing with the standard deduction. This is a case of "just presenting the data" with a comically obvious agenda (per what's missing).

kyleee 5y ago
Teaching summer school is paid, and various training are generally optional and/or paid. "Administrative duties" is nebulous. Many do pay for various school supplies out of pocket, and I agree they should be reimbursed or have access to greater deductions. They definitely have summers off though, so it is very odd to claim that they don't. It's plainly described in the employment contract in a traditional summers off (non-year round) schedule
- eesmith 5y ago
  The median pay includes those who teach summer school and earn extra money. Therefore, median pay for teachers cannot be equivalent to someone with a bachelors degree and unpaid summers off. Furthermore, the baseline should not be calendar days but hours worked. As willcipriano's own reference #1 points out, teachers "may also work evenings and weekends to prepare lessons and grade papers." If teachers spend their afternoons doing extracurricular activities, and evenings and weekends for grading lesson planning, giving a 55 hour week[1], while the average for someone with a bachelors degree is 40 hours[2], then the HS teacher makes ~15% less per hour than the hypothetical median bachelors degree holder. [3] [1] https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_full.pdf https://www.scholastic.com/primarysources/pdfs/Gates2012_ful... (from 9 years ago) says teachers spend 10 hours, 40 minutes at work. [2] https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-average-hours-per-week-worked-in-the-us-2060631 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-average-hours-... says "Those with a bachelor’s degree or higher worked 8.0 hours per day, while those with a high school diploma worked the most on an average day: 8.2 hours." [3] HS teacher, $62870 / (39 weeks * 55 hours/week) = $30.40/hour. Median bachelor's degree holder: $72830 / (50 weeks * 40 hours/week) = $36.42/hour. (36.42 - 30.42) / 36.42 = 16.5%.

eesmith 5y ago

Your reference [0] under "Work Environment" says teachers have 2 months of summer holidays, not 2.5. $72,830 * 10/12 = $60,691. I couldn't tell from the data at [0] if that wage included all income for a high school teacher (eg, the teacher works during the summer for a non-school job, and that income is included in the wage), or only the teaching-related income. The "Teachers’ work patterns: when, where, and how much do U.S. teachers work" from the BLS, at https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf , 45% of teachers work in July, and more likely than similar professionals to have multiple jobs. Assuming 50% education-related work during summer (instead of 0% work) means the comparable is: $72,830 * 11/12 = $66,760 which has high-school teachers as 6% underpaid, and the others as 9% underpaid. Many people have studied this question, resulting in publications with conclusions which are all over the place, especially when looking at think-tank publications and other non-peer-reviewed literature. I have no belief that a simple analysis using the numbers you presented gives a reliable understanding.