19 ms·

Classified tank specs leaked on War Thunder game forums again

299 points by weare138 5y ago

Ice_cream_suit 5y ago
"War Thunder is a vehicular combat multiplayer video game developed and published by Gaijin Entertainment. Despite the fact that Gaijin Entertainment lists itself as a Cyprus-based studio, it was originally founded in Moscow, Russia, where it still has offices today."
dmoy 5y ago
xkcd/386 urge is strong
Waterluvian 5y ago
When Facebook failed to stay online, there was someone who shared a lot of internal info before deleting their Reddit account. When I worked for company B I had learned through friends some really really juicy intel about competitor A (which I never shared). Through that experience and seeing all of these other examples, I’ve come to realize that there is an intoxicating effect of having info that can make you a “hero for a day” in the eyes of some audience. Has anyone else ever felt this allure before?
- notimetorelax 5y ago
  I think you get accustomed to it. Just fight the urge the first few times.
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  >When Facebook failed to stay online, there was someone who shared a lot of internal info before deleting their Reddit account. back in the day you would be tainted if you had read any of this material. today those lines have been blurred and even my employer, who was known to viciously keep tainted people out of the kernel, is nowhere near as strict
  - Zababa 5y ago
    What do you mean by "tainted" and "the kernel"?
    - morcheeba 5y ago
      That's a reference to clean room design - you don't want to be accused of stealing a competitor's design, so anyone with knowledge of that design is considered "tainted" and not allowed to work on your core systems ("kernel"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
      Tainted = aware of non-public information that must not be incorporated into the product, so it's easiest to just not let those people work on it at all. By only allowing people who don't know anything secret to work on a product, you keep the product safe from allegations (justified or not) of illegally incorporating third party material. If you don't do it, you risk that a competitor claims "your product contains our proprietary material, pay us royalties or we'll sue your customers". Even if you're 100% in the right, until you've had that decided in court, your customers have to worry about getting sued, and you'll lose business (and also spend a lot of money on lawyers). The model is particularly known/used in reverse engineering: One team (that is not tainted with knowing any NDA'd materials, I assume) looks at the product you're trying to reverse engineer, and writes a specification. Another team (not tainted by NDA'd knowledge or knowldege of the code of the original product) then implements the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
      - anamexis 5y ago
        Wouldn't the liability only be with the company that allegedly stole the secrets? How would the customers be implicated?
        grepfru_it 5y ago
        Many avenues lead directly to the customer. Linksys used gpl code illegally and when they were found out they had to release updates across all of their products, causing some of their lines to be end-of-lifed earlier than expected. Customers are definitely impacted by that. How about security secrets which directly impacts the customer?
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Yes, when I was 12 I spoiled someone's secret.
- bserge 5y ago
  Yes, it is incredibly alluring to share something only I know and either see people be amazed, surprised or not believe it, which gives the best feeling imo. Really hard to stop myself sometimes, especially when drunk.
- samsonradu 5y ago
  The allure seems to be there: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/navy-nuclear-engineer-and-his-wife-charged-with-trying-to-share-submarine-secrets-with-a-foreign-country/2021/10/10/c461aff2-29d9-11ec-baf4-d7a4e075eb90_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/navy-nuclea...
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Toebbe allegedly asked for $100,000 in cryptocurrency, saying “I understand this is a large request. However, please remember I am risking my life for your benefit and I have taken the first step. Please help me trust you fully.” Well, that not not even funny, more of cringeworthy.
    - vmception 5y ago
      > “Your thoughtful plans indicate you are not amateur,” the FBI wrote to Toebbe. “This relationship requires mutual comfort.” LOL, I like to play with salespeople because I know their responses are scripted. So although I like being commended on my intelligence, I change my job title and pedigree just to see if that gets the same accolades “You’re a lightbulb repairman so I know you’re smart, you can see this offer is the best for you” says the person making an offer that is not the best for me. Helps me keep a clearer head in negotiating
      - geoduck14 5y ago
        >You’re a lightbulb repairman so I know you’re smart If you can provide for your family by JUST repairing light bulbs, you are probably REALLY good at it.
        sunshineforever 5y ago
        You might be surprised to learn that a lot of meth smokers are into very basic glassblowing.
        vmception 5y ago
- newacct583 5y ago
  Exactly. Note that the same analysis can work in reverse, too. The lack of leaky corroboration for a juicy, tempting-to-believe theory is a really high quality prior that it just isn't true. (With, maybe, an exception for very tightly controlled intelligence organizations. But in general anything juicy in the civilian world isn't going to stay hidden.) For example: this is my #1 for why COVID Was Not A Lab Leak. The incentives for someone involved to blab are just way too high. If there was an incriminating email anywhere, we'd know. (Edit: and right on cue multiple people want to storm in arguing why this principle is not applicable in this particular situation. That's how you know it's "juicy", not how you know it's true!)
  - vimy 5y ago
    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/health-news/coronavirus-covid-19-engineered-at-wuhan-lab-who-knew-about-it-claims-chinese-whistleblower-on-the-run/articleshow/78276356.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitnes... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/lab-leak-pandemic-origins-even-messier/620209/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/lab-leak... https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/09/former-chinese-communist-party-insider-wei-jingsheng-speaks-out-on-wuhans-theory-of-covid-19.html https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/09/former-chinese-communist-...
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    It depends on a) how many people know about it b) how much they have to lose if the information gets out. The latter is a particularly powerful deterrent if it will hurt the person who shares it even if the leak isn't traced to them. For the tank manuals a) is likely hundreds of thousands of people, and b) is zero unless the leak is traced to them, and they possibly don't expect much even if it is. For the lab leak, b) is a strong deterrent - every virologist working on even moderately risky research would face trouble (in the form or stricter restrictions and possibly bans on the category of research) if the theory got confirmed, and for the people working in the Chinese lab, embarrassing the Chinese govt is probably pretty far up on the "mistakes you don't get to make twice" list. a) is less clear: They might not even be aware of a lab leak if it was one. However, one piece of sensitive info that could leak would be "we worked on something that was more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than the previously known sample", and I'd expect that to be reasonably well known at a research institute. However, that adds a third aspect: Verifiability of the leak. Even if a drunk scientist sat in a pub in Wuhan, telling his friends that it totally was a lab leak, and someone overheard that - what then? They post on Twitter "I heard some people talking that it totally was a lab leak"? Even if their friends say "hey, I know someone from the place and it totally is a lab leak", it'd at best be yet another unconfirmed and unconfirmable rumor that would be unlikely to make it far. Just because there are many leaks, doesn't mean there isn't also a lot of spicy information that never becomes public. These leaks are news because they're rare, even when hundreds of thousands of people have access to a piece of info. Reduce the circle of people in the know to 100, and the probability of a leak drops drastically.
- rootbear 5y ago
  I have only been in that position once or twice, but yeah, knowing some secrets can be exciting.
- tornato7 5y ago
  It's amazing how some people will risk their job, their clearance, and potentially their freedom, just to impress some random dudes online for a few minutes. I tell people this whenever I'm asked about something I'm not supposed to reveal. "You want me to risk my _ just so you can satisfy your curiosity?"
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    It begs the inclusion of "How much time do you spend online? And how much do you value the opinions of online communities?" as security clearance questions. Are they, now? Historically, they'd be very interested in what you'd say to your friends, family, etc. But the allure of internet fame would seem to have a more pursuasive effect.
    - eganist 5y ago
      > Are they, now? They're not included in Standard Form 86, latest revision November 2016: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf That's not to say it's excluded from polygraph questions; I can imagine a world where online associations are very relevant to an agency in need of a CI or full scope poly for compartment access.
      - Waterluvian 5y ago
        Wait. Some people still get put through a complete nonsense pseudoscience polygraph test for clearance?
        evilduck 5y ago
        It’s a standard practice for a tier of Top Secret security clearance.
        User23 5y ago
        It’s like the FAANG interview process. Everyone knows it’s suboptimal, but nobody knows how to do better at that scale.
- EamonnMR 5y ago
  I've spent an inordinate amount of my life chasing that high, not by leaking information but by trying to be the guy who finally remade the game everyone liked.
  - shepardrtc 5y ago
    Gaben?
  - bmsleight_ 5y ago
    I liked the game http://flythrough.space/ http://flythrough.space/
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  I've definitely been in that position before (though the stakes were much lower) and spilled the beans to my personal audience. It was so very exciting! Then I regretted it. Not because I was caught or suffered any consequences, but because I felt childish and attention seeking. The allure is gone for me now. I wonder if others come to the same conclusion?
  - 101008 5y ago
    Same here. Posting an exclusive online is not satisfaying anymore. Maybe because I grew up on times where other websites used to link to your website as Source? Now "influencers" will copy your exclusive on Twitter and Instagram without giving any credit.
- 1270018080 5y ago
  Isn't preying on that allure the mark of successful journalism? Getting info from unofficial channels etc.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    I can imagine many other motives and methods. Many people are torn between risking their careers, freedom, and/or safaety, and doing the right thing by blowing the whistle.
- dejawu 5y ago
  I believe that's exactly how intelligence agencies will compel people to spy for them and betray their own nations: they make them feel smart and special for sharing information.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  SIS (MI6) literally have a page on their website for sharing dirt with them "securely" https://www.sis.gov.uk/contact-us-form.html?lan=en https://www.sis.gov.uk/contact-us-form.html?lan=en
  - fnord77 5y ago
    imagine sharing classified information via an https webform. Yikes!
    - Consultant32452 5y ago
      Just take a picture with your phone and text it to me.
- ren_engineer 5y ago
  it's in human nature and in every industry. It's just a variation of gossip, which is what the majority of the news industry is based on. Almost all the news is "sources" giving a peek behind the curtain for everybody else, or at least the illusion of a real glimpse humans are curious by nature
- ogurechny 5y ago
  Quite the opposite. People naturally feel more “important” and “knowing” when they have access to internal or “secret” information, while in fact they perform the work of a cog in the system. In 100 years — often much less than that — none of that secret stuff would matter, and it will become clear that someone's life was wasted on transitory things for the benefit of some bureaucracy or corporation.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Every cog is required in order for the system to run. Even when parts of the system are not materially utilized, i.e. tanks that never see action, they have important strategic value in terms of deterrence and optionality. It's probably understandable that people want to 'feel important' for a moment, but if they had the 'big picture' they'd realize that 'doing their job' is the most important thing they could do. It's easy for regular people to lose sight of that, just as it's easy for some people in power to take their roles a bit too seriously.
- armchairhacker 5y ago
  There's an intoxicating effect of just contributing to a conversation, saying something interesting to other people. But there's also shyness and paranoia: what if whatever I say makes me look bad? What if it comes back to screw me over later? The Internet dilutes the latter a bit because you're anonymous. But you can still get caught e.g. if someone goes through your post history and recognizes you. Some people are very paranoid and don't like to share anything because they're afraid somehow it will affect them later. I guess on the other hand, there are people willing to share confidential information for attention without protecting themselves adequately (or at all!).
  - swayvil 5y ago
    I know (from a forum) a guy who is VERY paranoid. His ideas are strange. His conversational style is combative. He published a book. He used his forum nick as the author name. He won't let anybody even know his age. Forget occupation or nation. Par. A. Noid.
    - ta988 5y ago
      I wonder how much you could find by correlating subjects and way of writing. Not so many people hide their writing style as well.
      - swayvil 5y ago
        Oh no doubt. The technology definitely already exists. A wonderful algorithm that all the security agencies use.
      - cassonmars 5y ago
        There’s some folks who will run their sentences through google translate and back between languages with poor translation coverage to strip identifying writing styles.
        geoduck14 5y ago
        >There’s some folks who will run their sentences through google translate and back between languages with poor translation coverage to strip identifying writing styles. Hi Google! It's Robert Hackerman, here with the County Search Engine Inspector Office. Google: Hi Bob! How can I help you? Robert: I have a bunch of phrases passed through your Google Translate, can you help me find the IP that submitted them? Thanks.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Sure. I work in game dev, we work with highly NDAd stuff that a lot of people would love to know about(things like console devkits way before anything about the hardware is made public, or just details on unannounced games). The temptation to "be the hero" as you said is always there but it would literally cost you your job and most likely your entire career as I can't imagine you'd ever find employment after doing such a thing. It's really hard to resist when you read comments and someone says "oh I bet Sony would never do X in their next console" and you actually know the truth but can't say.
  - vvanders 5y ago
    Yeah, I think in game dev there was also a culture of understanding that leaking that stuff just hurt whoever was working directly on it. Back when I was in industry we all knew what everyone else was working on including big IPs and next gen console stuff. That might have also been a factor of how small and tight nit of an industry it was.
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    Rest assured, if it gets leaked the vocal internet gamers that spend more time on Twitter and reddit will rarely be happy, and instead will use the leak to make it look bad. It's too bad we live in the digital age where you can't just tell someone "sora is the next character in smash, nobody is going to believe you." And then walk away. Everything's recorded and saved somewhere.
- ChuckMcM 5y ago
  As you surmise it is not uncommon. It is talked about in some of the security briefings I've been required to watch and FSO's (facility security officers) have a bunch of stories of this effect facilitating a security leak. When I was at Google a TechStop employee couldn't "help themselves" and shared a picture of an unreleased Android phone. Apparently it wasn't hard to figure out who it was and they were subsequently fired and everyone got a lecture at the Friday meeting. I have not seen much literature on whether or not there are ways to mitigate that "feeling." (sure there are the 'you'll be fired if you tell anyone') but this comes up in all sorts of scenarios like seeing a VP from your company out on what looks like a romantic date with someone who isn't their spouse.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- krisoft 5y ago
  The traditional model of psychological factors behind leaks is called MICE. Each letter describes a potential reason why one would leak secret information. M stands for money, I stands for ideology, C stands for coercion, and E stands for ego or excitement. I believe this last one, the E covers what you are talking about. People who know something special can share it and thus appear in the specific circumstanc as special themselves. This strokes their ego which motivates them to share more.
  - noodlesUK 5y ago
    It sounds like you are knowledgeable about this topic. Where might I be able to read more?
    - disposableuname 5y ago
      In every intro book on espionage. MICE is the short-hand for why people become traitors / how to turn people into assets.
      - crdrost 5y ago
        Very surprised that they never added one that started with R so that the acronym could be CRIME.
        bigiain 5y ago
        "Coercion, Reddit-karma, Ideology, Money, Ego"
        killingtime74 5y ago
        religion? revenge?
        jdub 5y ago
        That's just ideology.
- TomVDB 5y ago
  I once attended a press briefing, as a supporting demo engineer, that started with a very stern “Under NDA” warning, followed by some pretty mundane technical disclosures. Not 10 minutes later, one of the attending journalists was blabbing about it on Reddit under a user name that was linked to his publication. Another 10 minutes later, said journalist was walked out of the room, well before the really interesting stuff was talked about. I wonder how he explained that to his editor. What an idiot…
- Andrex 5y ago
  Yup. Video game "leakers" are some of the thirstiest clout chasers I've ever seen.
- Pxtl 5y ago
  Yup. I work in health research, but as a software developer. I know I'm not a scientist or a doctor so I shouldn't shoot my mouth off about medical issues and pretend I'm an authority on the matter, but it gets hard.
- iratewizard 5y ago
  When I snitched on Google for doing messed up things in the name of "equity" I felt much better about taking on the project in the first place.
- Bertio 5y ago
  Yes. Quite a few times I’ve had some exciting inside info from my industry and I would love to spill it in my pseudo anonymous online hangouts! But then when I compose something that doesn’t give anything away I realize I’ve said nothing and don’t submit.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  The adult version of ‘my dad work at Nintendo’
- nomel 5y ago
  I suppose I'm the opposite. I feel excited by the trust and camaraderie that goes with having secrets. I'm protecting something with real value, that we all worked hard for, rather than destroying it.
HMH 5y ago
Discussion of the previous leak: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857636
alexklark 5y ago
Omg somebody posted obvious info for general soldiers from manual that is already in possess of every other army in the world including taliban since its first print. By knowing rotation speed anyone on the forum who attack erm france can erm run faster around it and force it to erm surrender? Of course fat cats and war mongers that sits on taxpayers’ war money will never allow anything regarding they precious war secrets to be published. But then, imagine world of open sourced weapons...
- bserge 5y ago
  Open sourced weapons would benefit rich countries disproportionately. Even if poor countries have all the access to classified information, they can't do anything with it, as you said. However, the information can be sold.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    The OP is right, if half the army has it in a manual, then this info is not a secret for anyone relevant. For all intents and purposes the AK is the opensource weapon. Hard to see how open source weapons would benegit rich countries, they already have the designs.
  - Igelau 5y ago
    Reminds me of the Nth Country Experiment https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/nth-country-experiment https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/nth-country-experimen... There's a difference between knowing how to do something (even without classified information) and being able to pull it off.
blauditore 5y ago
The blurred text is still readable (somewhat). How do you arrive at 31° per second if a full turn takes 11s?
- addaon 5y ago
  Rounding, perhaps? 31.45 * 11.45 ~= 360.
- JorgeGT 5y ago
  There's probably a slower acceleration phase at first?
dirtyid 5y ago
How come tankers seem to have loose lips? Haven't heard of similar leaks in World of Warships or DCS. Planes/Ships/Subs have more opsec because more important?
- shakow 5y ago
  This (https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/15/18623545/eagle-dynamics-f-16-manual-conspiracy-smuggling-russia https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/15/18623545/eagle-dynamics-f-...) happened w.r.t. DCS, and the most recent stuff in WoW is late WWII, s if something was to be revealed, it would interest military historians more than intel agencies :)
  - dirtyid 5y ago
    Is there a naval game with modern hardware? I remember watching a multiplayer game on Twitch with SSNs and modern carriers. I feel like these communities are probably good places to bait active service people for classified info. Every once in a while on defense forums, there's deleted posts and reminders not to reveal capabilities indicating there's definitely folks out there eager to talk.
    - duskwuff 5y ago
      It wouldn't make for a very exciting or visually impressive game. Much of modern naval warfare is conducted at long range, sometimes even beyond the horizon. You don't see many submarine warfare simulators either, for essentially the same reason.
    - post_from_work 5y ago
      >>>Is there a naval game with modern hardware? Command: Modern Operations is your best bet. It's a $70 game. They sell the "Professional Edition" to the military for $20,000 per license. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Operations/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Op... https://pro.matrixgames.com/game/command-professional-edition https://pro.matrixgames.com/game/command-professional-editio...
    - 5y ago
concordDance 5y ago
It's hard to see how leaking this kind of info matters... Everyone who actually cares about French tank turret turn rates and might get a very slight advantage from being able to train their tankers on slightly more accurate simulators (e.g. the Russians) already knows jt.
- TheJoeMan 5y ago
  That’s why this article worrying about blurring stuff seems so silly. China, if they already didn’t know, are fully capable of re-finding it from the forum. The only ones who don’t know are the regular public so this veil of secrecy on French tank turn rates is entirely for ego.
  - manquer 5y ago
    More to limit any government reaction than anything else. If they didn't do some of this , their site may get blocked or get sued by the government.
- oconnor663 5y ago
  As admins, they probably don't want to put themselves in a position where they're making judgment calls about what matters and what doesn't. It's reasonable to have a bright line policy.
GoodJokes 5y ago
Oh no, whatever company will have to make a new secret one.
aasasd 5y ago
I keep wondering how Codemasters, and Sony/Psygnosis before them, obtained any kind of accurate info about F1 cars. Well, sure they have the license, but do the teams share numbers? Codemasters have mentioned on the forums that they have some real-life measurements that serve as basis for the game physics, so at least it's not pure fantasy (iirc the discussion was about the speed of gear shifting—players complained they can't click through five gears as fast as they want). Could the rivals conceivably peek in the game at some behavior they can't really discern through binoculars at testing and races? The sport had its moments of hide-and-seek in the past, with both FIA and competitors—e.g. the chassis that changed its height after driving out of the pits. Granted, the F1 series isn't spectacularly realistic, and Codies admitted some of the cars' behavior is softened relative to the reality, to not be too hard on the players (again, the gears).
- timpattinson 5y ago
  you can tell a lot about a racecar (estimate power, friction coefficient, aero coefficients) by just observing speed vs. time on a known racetrack, and that data is certainly publicly available. Although as others have said the F1 series isn't known for its physics.
- himaraya 5y ago
  No, F1 20xx remains an arcade sim with inaccurate driving dynamics. See Assetto Corsa for more accurate data sources.
  - aasasd 5y ago
    Well I have trouble taking advice from you, because you're obviously not a real sim racer: you haven't even told me to buy a wheel.
- hugh-avherald 5y ago
  Thing is for a game you can control the cars performance by changing the laws of physics. For example, you don't have to know that this aerodynamic device causes a vortex at such and such a speed -- you can just say they're driving in a vacuum and 'this is how fast the car can go around this corner'.
stevage 5y ago
Tip to anyone who is trying to prevent sharing information: don't blur text. Black it out completely, at 100% opacity. It's not that hard to decipher the blurred text.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Also, make sure you black it out on the same layer. Plenty of people add a black box over something in a PDF and you can get the data just by selecting it, copying it, and pasting it.
  - nikanj 5y ago
    The instructions we've used for years 1) Print it out 2) Cut out the parts you want to redact 3) Scan the paper This might be more work, but 1) It's easy enough for anyone to understand 2) It's really, really hard to get wrong
    - jsty 5y ago
      A bit easier but more or less as effective is redact on pc -> print -> scan Pretty much as infallible and saves a huge amount of scissor time.
  - Daneel_ 5y ago
    Also also: black it out with an overly large box, otherwise it's possible to infer information from the length or height of the box. Eg, is the number two digits or ten? Box length might tell you.
  - curryst 5y ago
    I saw someone recommend screenshotting the PDF to images, then converting those back to a PDF to ensure that you've scrubbed all non-visible artifacts.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
itronitron 5y ago
Probably the worst thing you can do if you see classified information or data out in the open is to call attention to it (publicly) and comment on it being classified or in some way 'notable'. Just because some information is public doesn't mean it's not classified.
cycomanic 5y ago
“Guys its not funnny to leak classified Documents of modern equipment you put the lives of many on stake who work daily with the Vehicles! Keep in Mind that those documents will be deleted immediately alongside sanctions. Thanks for reading!” I always think it is amazing how many buy into the lifes at risk hyperbole. Even if we assume that the content in the document isn't already known to all the "players" in the field, how much "advantage" can be gained from the manual (I suspect if it really was that important they would not put it in the manual). Moreover, if leaking the manual really puts the lifes of the crew at risk, would not leaking also put lifes at risk, i.e. the one of the people fighting the tanks?
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Moreover, if leaking the manual really puts the lifes of the crew at risk, would not leaking also put lifes at risk, i.e. the one of the people fighting the tanks?" Thats the point. No military is interested in making it easier for its enemies to fight you. And with irregular conflicts, you cannot assume everyone knows everything anyway. If you would have to fight this tank for real, don't you think, you want any information possible? Weak spots, sensors,.. or even getting enough knowledge to take over the tank. Military secrets have their reason, no matter how you judge the stance of said military.
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    >No military is interested in making it easier for its enemies to fight you. Is this game made by the military?
    - thioordc 5y ago
      I could be wrong but I don’t think Gaijin was created or contracted by the military to make the game.
      - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
        I dunno, in effect it's military propaganda. I know the game America's Army was funded and promoted by the US army at the time.
1cvmask 5y ago
The French Leclerq tank had the specs revealed. Previously they leaked the specs of the British Challenger Tank: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-specs-leaked-online-for-videogame/ https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-s...
dhx 5y ago
What type of classified information was leaked? From the screenshot provided it appears that the argument may have been about the turret rotation speed (probably as listed on Wikipedia?), whether it is 9 or 12 seconds for full rotation of the turret? The 9 second rotation speed was added to Wikipedia 5 years ago[1] and the 12 second rotation speed information added 8 years ago[2]. It appears the original information was perhaps sourced from a book titled "Char Leclerc - De la guerre froide aux conflits de demain" by author Marc Chassillan and published 16 years ago[3]. I find it hard to believe turret rotation speed would warrant classification given how readily observable this metric would be to an enemy. The chance of a tank operator accidentally demonstrating maximum turret rotation speed during a training exercise, public display or otherwise would also be very high, even if tank operators were instructed to never operate the turret at maximum rotation speed to avoid showing off a better metric than what may be known publicly. I would assume the concern, if warranted, would be for some other type of information that may be less observable e.g. a statement to the effect of "If you rotate the turret at maximum rotation speed for more than X cumulative seconds, the turret will enter a safety mode and only operate at maximum speed of X% of the normal maximum rotation speed. Maintenance procedure XYZ will need to be conducted to restore full performance of the turret." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff=749915425&oldid=745306689 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff=578966004&oldid=578864457 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-2726894385 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-272689...
- UncleEntity 5y ago
  Back in the day I went to Dragon Gunner school and knowing the rotational capabilities of a tank was fairly important since it was wire guided and if they can turn and shoot before you hit them… Pretty low battlefield survival probability with being a dragon gunner since they were relatively slow compared to the Soviet era tanks ability to get a shot off at the big puff of smoke you just created.
  - dhx 5y ago
    Perhaps it was a metric many years ago which countries thought could be kept relatively unknown before everyone had cameras, instant communication, etc? The US seems to be happy showing off the turret rotation speed of the M1 Abrams at public demos as shown in [1], [2], [3] and [4]. There is no rotation speed listed on the Wikipedia page for this tank but elsewhere on the Internet appears to state 9 seconds for full rotation, which appears to match up with what the videos show. I find it hard to believe there is much benefit if any in classifying turret rotation speeds, or for that matter, most other parts of a tank in 2021. The underlying technology is ancient and readily described in all manner of books and videos. The overwhelmingly important factor in tank warfare today would be whether another platform with better visibility of surrounds (UAV, satellite, etc) has communicated enemy positions to the tank crew. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHcKEc_2Nc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHcKEc_2Nc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLWb2AHLzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLWb2AHLzw [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XUQ2beGfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XUQ2beGfM [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mH-_h3_1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mH-_h3_1Q

299 points by weare138 5y ago

"War Thunder is a vehicular combat multiplayer video game developed and published by Gaijin Entertainment. Despite the fact that Gaijin Entertainment lists itself as a Cyprus-based studio, it was originally founded in Moscow, Russia, where it still has offices today."

dmoy 5y ago

xkcd/386 urge is strong

Waterluvian 5y ago

When Facebook failed to stay online, there was someone who shared a lot of internal info before deleting their Reddit account. When I worked for company B I had learned through friends some really really juicy intel about competitor A (which I never shared). Through that experience and seeing all of these other examples, I’ve come to realize that there is an intoxicating effect of having info that can make you a “hero for a day” in the eyes of some audience. Has anyone else ever felt this allure before?

notimetorelax 5y ago
I think you get accustomed to it. Just fight the urge the first few times.
grepfru_it 5y ago
>When Facebook failed to stay online, there was someone who shared a lot of internal info before deleting their Reddit account. back in the day you would be tainted if you had read any of this material. today those lines have been blurred and even my employer, who was known to viciously keep tainted people out of the kernel, is nowhere near as strict
- Zababa 5y ago
  What do you mean by "tainted" and "the kernel"?
  - morcheeba 5y ago
    That's a reference to clean room design - you don't want to be accused of stealing a competitor's design, so anyone with knowledge of that design is considered "tainted" and not allowed to work on your core systems ("kernel"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
    Tainted = aware of non-public information that must not be incorporated into the product, so it's easiest to just not let those people work on it at all. By only allowing people who don't know anything secret to work on a product, you keep the product safe from allegations (justified or not) of illegally incorporating third party material. If you don't do it, you risk that a competitor claims "your product contains our proprietary material, pay us royalties or we'll sue your customers". Even if you're 100% in the right, until you've had that decided in court, your customers have to worry about getting sued, and you'll lose business (and also spend a lot of money on lawyers). The model is particularly known/used in reverse engineering: One team (that is not tainted with knowing any NDA'd materials, I assume) looks at the product you're trying to reverse engineer, and writes a specification. Another team (not tainted by NDA'd knowledge or knowldege of the code of the original product) then implements the spec. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design
    - anamexis 5y ago
      Wouldn't the liability only be with the company that allegedly stole the secrets? How would the customers be implicated?
      - grepfru_it 5y ago
        Many avenues lead directly to the customer. Linksys used gpl code illegally and when they were found out they had to release updates across all of their products, causing some of their lines to be end-of-lifed earlier than expected. Customers are definitely impacted by that. How about security secrets which directly impacts the customer?
agumonkey 5y ago
Yes, when I was 12 I spoiled someone's secret.
bserge 5y ago
Yes, it is incredibly alluring to share something only I know and either see people be amazed, surprised or not believe it, which gives the best feeling imo. Really hard to stop myself sometimes, especially when drunk.
samsonradu 5y ago
The allure seems to be there: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/navy-nuclear-engineer-and-his-wife-charged-with-trying-to-share-submarine-secrets-with-a-foreign-country/2021/10/10/c461aff2-29d9-11ec-baf4-d7a4e075eb90_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/navy-nuclea...
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Toebbe allegedly asked for $100,000 in cryptocurrency, saying “I understand this is a large request. However, please remember I am risking my life for your benefit and I have taken the first step. Please help me trust you fully.” Well, that not not even funny, more of cringeworthy.
  - vmception 5y ago
    > “Your thoughtful plans indicate you are not amateur,” the FBI wrote to Toebbe. “This relationship requires mutual comfort.” LOL, I like to play with salespeople because I know their responses are scripted. So although I like being commended on my intelligence, I change my job title and pedigree just to see if that gets the same accolades “You’re a lightbulb repairman so I know you’re smart, you can see this offer is the best for you” says the person making an offer that is not the best for me. Helps me keep a clearer head in negotiating
    - geoduck14 5y ago
      >You’re a lightbulb repairman so I know you’re smart If you can provide for your family by JUST repairing light bulbs, you are probably REALLY good at it.
      - sunshineforever 5y ago
        You might be surprised to learn that a lot of meth smokers are into very basic glassblowing.
      - vmception 5y ago
newacct583 5y ago
Exactly. Note that the same analysis can work in reverse, too. The lack of leaky corroboration for a juicy, tempting-to-believe theory is a really high quality prior that it just isn't true. (With, maybe, an exception for very tightly controlled intelligence organizations. But in general anything juicy in the civilian world isn't going to stay hidden.) For example: this is my #1 for why COVID Was Not A Lab Leak. The incentives for someone involved to blab are just way too high. If there was an incriminating email anywhere, we'd know. (Edit: and right on cue multiple people want to storm in arguing why this principle is not applicable in this particular situation. That's how you know it's "juicy", not how you know it's true!)
- vimy 5y ago
  https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/health-news/coronavirus-covid-19-engineered-at-wuhan-lab-who-knew-about-it-claims-chinese-whistleblower-on-the-run/articleshow/78276356.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitnes... https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/lab-leak-pandemic-origins-even-messier/620209/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/lab-leak... https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/09/former-chinese-communist-party-insider-wei-jingsheng-speaks-out-on-wuhans-theory-of-covid-19.html https://www.fr24news.com/a/2021/09/former-chinese-communist-...
- tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
  It depends on a) how many people know about it b) how much they have to lose if the information gets out. The latter is a particularly powerful deterrent if it will hurt the person who shares it even if the leak isn't traced to them. For the tank manuals a) is likely hundreds of thousands of people, and b) is zero unless the leak is traced to them, and they possibly don't expect much even if it is. For the lab leak, b) is a strong deterrent - every virologist working on even moderately risky research would face trouble (in the form or stricter restrictions and possibly bans on the category of research) if the theory got confirmed, and for the people working in the Chinese lab, embarrassing the Chinese govt is probably pretty far up on the "mistakes you don't get to make twice" list. a) is less clear: They might not even be aware of a lab leak if it was one. However, one piece of sensitive info that could leak would be "we worked on something that was more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than the previously known sample", and I'd expect that to be reasonably well known at a research institute. However, that adds a third aspect: Verifiability of the leak. Even if a drunk scientist sat in a pub in Wuhan, telling his friends that it totally was a lab leak, and someone overheard that - what then? They post on Twitter "I heard some people talking that it totally was a lab leak"? Even if their friends say "hey, I know someone from the place and it totally is a lab leak", it'd at best be yet another unconfirmed and unconfirmable rumor that would be unlikely to make it far. Just because there are many leaks, doesn't mean there isn't also a lot of spicy information that never becomes public. These leaks are news because they're rare, even when hundreds of thousands of people have access to a piece of info. Reduce the circle of people in the know to 100, and the probability of a leak drops drastically.
rootbear 5y ago
I have only been in that position once or twice, but yeah, knowing some secrets can be exciting.
tornato7 5y ago
It's amazing how some people will risk their job, their clearance, and potentially their freedom, just to impress some random dudes online for a few minutes. I tell people this whenever I'm asked about something I'm not supposed to reveal. "You want me to risk my _ just so you can satisfy your curiosity?"
- ethbr0 5y ago
  It begs the inclusion of "How much time do you spend online? And how much do you value the opinions of online communities?" as security clearance questions. Are they, now? Historically, they'd be very interested in what you'd say to your friends, family, etc. But the allure of internet fame would seem to have a more pursuasive effect.
  - eganist 5y ago
    > Are they, now? They're not included in Standard Form 86, latest revision November 2016: https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf86.pdf That's not to say it's excluded from polygraph questions; I can imagine a world where online associations are very relevant to an agency in need of a CI or full scope poly for compartment access.
    - Waterluvian 5y ago
      Wait. Some people still get put through a complete nonsense pseudoscience polygraph test for clearance?
      - evilduck 5y ago
        It’s a standard practice for a tier of Top Secret security clearance.
      - User23 5y ago
        It’s like the FAANG interview process. Everyone knows it’s suboptimal, but nobody knows how to do better at that scale.
EamonnMR 5y ago
I've spent an inordinate amount of my life chasing that high, not by leaking information but by trying to be the guy who finally remade the game everyone liked.
- shepardrtc 5y ago
  Gaben?
- bmsleight_ 5y ago
  I liked the game http://flythrough.space/ http://flythrough.space/
monkeybutton 5y ago
I've definitely been in that position before (though the stakes were much lower) and spilled the beans to my personal audience. It was so very exciting! Then I regretted it. Not because I was caught or suffered any consequences, but because I felt childish and attention seeking. The allure is gone for me now. I wonder if others come to the same conclusion?
- 101008 5y ago
  Same here. Posting an exclusive online is not satisfaying anymore. Maybe because I grew up on times where other websites used to link to your website as Source? Now "influencers" will copy your exclusive on Twitter and Instagram without giving any credit.
1270018080 5y ago
Isn't preying on that allure the mark of successful journalism? Getting info from unofficial channels etc.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  I can imagine many other motives and methods. Many people are torn between risking their careers, freedom, and/or safaety, and doing the right thing by blowing the whistle.
dejawu 5y ago
I believe that's exactly how intelligence agencies will compel people to spy for them and betray their own nations: they make them feel smart and special for sharing information.
mhh__ 5y ago
SIS (MI6) literally have a page on their website for sharing dirt with them "securely" https://www.sis.gov.uk/contact-us-form.html?lan=en https://www.sis.gov.uk/contact-us-form.html?lan=en
- fnord77 5y ago
  imagine sharing classified information via an https webform. Yikes!
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    Just take a picture with your phone and text it to me.
ren_engineer 5y ago
it's in human nature and in every industry. It's just a variation of gossip, which is what the majority of the news industry is based on. Almost all the news is "sources" giving a peek behind the curtain for everybody else, or at least the illusion of a real glimpse humans are curious by nature
ogurechny 5y ago
Quite the opposite. People naturally feel more “important” and “knowing” when they have access to internal or “secret” information, while in fact they perform the work of a cog in the system. In 100 years — often much less than that — none of that secret stuff would matter, and it will become clear that someone's life was wasted on transitory things for the benefit of some bureaucracy or corporation.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Every cog is required in order for the system to run. Even when parts of the system are not materially utilized, i.e. tanks that never see action, they have important strategic value in terms of deterrence and optionality. It's probably understandable that people want to 'feel important' for a moment, but if they had the 'big picture' they'd realize that 'doing their job' is the most important thing they could do. It's easy for regular people to lose sight of that, just as it's easy for some people in power to take their roles a bit too seriously.
armchairhacker 5y ago
There's an intoxicating effect of just contributing to a conversation, saying something interesting to other people. But there's also shyness and paranoia: what if whatever I say makes me look bad? What if it comes back to screw me over later? The Internet dilutes the latter a bit because you're anonymous. But you can still get caught e.g. if someone goes through your post history and recognizes you. Some people are very paranoid and don't like to share anything because they're afraid somehow it will affect them later. I guess on the other hand, there are people willing to share confidential information for attention without protecting themselves adequately (or at all!).
- swayvil 5y ago
  I know (from a forum) a guy who is VERY paranoid. His ideas are strange. His conversational style is combative. He published a book. He used his forum nick as the author name. He won't let anybody even know his age. Forget occupation or nation. Par. A. Noid.
  - ta988 5y ago
    I wonder how much you could find by correlating subjects and way of writing. Not so many people hide their writing style as well.
    - swayvil 5y ago
      Oh no doubt. The technology definitely already exists. A wonderful algorithm that all the security agencies use.
    - cassonmars 5y ago
      There’s some folks who will run their sentences through google translate and back between languages with poor translation coverage to strip identifying writing styles.
      - geoduck14 5y ago
        >There’s some folks who will run their sentences through google translate and back between languages with poor translation coverage to strip identifying writing styles. Hi Google! It's Robert Hackerman, here with the County Search Engine Inspector Office. Google: Hi Bob! How can I help you? Robert: I have a bunch of phrases passed through your Google Translate, can you help me find the IP that submitted them? Thanks.
gambiting 5y ago
Sure. I work in game dev, we work with highly NDAd stuff that a lot of people would love to know about(things like console devkits way before anything about the hardware is made public, or just details on unannounced games). The temptation to "be the hero" as you said is always there but it would literally cost you your job and most likely your entire career as I can't imagine you'd ever find employment after doing such a thing. It's really hard to resist when you read comments and someone says "oh I bet Sony would never do X in their next console" and you actually know the truth but can't say.
- vvanders 5y ago
  Yeah, I think in game dev there was also a culture of understanding that leaking that stuff just hurt whoever was working directly on it. Back when I was in industry we all knew what everyone else was working on including big IPs and next gen console stuff. That might have also been a factor of how small and tight nit of an industry it was.
- devwastaken 5y ago
  Rest assured, if it gets leaked the vocal internet gamers that spend more time on Twitter and reddit will rarely be happy, and instead will use the leak to make it look bad. It's too bad we live in the digital age where you can't just tell someone "sora is the next character in smash, nobody is going to believe you." And then walk away. Everything's recorded and saved somewhere.
ChuckMcM 5y ago
As you surmise it is not uncommon. It is talked about in some of the security briefings I've been required to watch and FSO's (facility security officers) have a bunch of stories of this effect facilitating a security leak. When I was at Google a TechStop employee couldn't "help themselves" and shared a picture of an unreleased Android phone. Apparently it wasn't hard to figure out who it was and they were subsequently fired and everyone got a lecture at the Friday meeting. I have not seen much literature on whether or not there are ways to mitigate that "feeling." (sure there are the 'you'll be fired if you tell anyone') but this comes up in all sorts of scenarios like seeing a VP from your company out on what looks like a romantic date with someone who isn't their spouse.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
krisoft 5y ago
The traditional model of psychological factors behind leaks is called MICE. Each letter describes a potential reason why one would leak secret information. M stands for money, I stands for ideology, C stands for coercion, and E stands for ego or excitement. I believe this last one, the E covers what you are talking about. People who know something special can share it and thus appear in the specific circumstanc as special themselves. This strokes their ego which motivates them to share more.
- noodlesUK 5y ago
  It sounds like you are knowledgeable about this topic. Where might I be able to read more?
  - disposableuname 5y ago
    In every intro book on espionage. MICE is the short-hand for why people become traitors / how to turn people into assets.
    - crdrost 5y ago
      Very surprised that they never added one that started with R so that the acronym could be CRIME.
      - bigiain 5y ago
        "Coercion, Reddit-karma, Ideology, Money, Ego"
      - killingtime74 5y ago
        religion? revenge?
        jdub 5y ago
        That's just ideology.
TomVDB 5y ago
I once attended a press briefing, as a supporting demo engineer, that started with a very stern “Under NDA” warning, followed by some pretty mundane technical disclosures. Not 10 minutes later, one of the attending journalists was blabbing about it on Reddit under a user name that was linked to his publication. Another 10 minutes later, said journalist was walked out of the room, well before the really interesting stuff was talked about. I wonder how he explained that to his editor. What an idiot…
Andrex 5y ago
Yup. Video game "leakers" are some of the thirstiest clout chasers I've ever seen.
Pxtl 5y ago
Yup. I work in health research, but as a software developer. I know I'm not a scientist or a doctor so I shouldn't shoot my mouth off about medical issues and pretend I'm an authority on the matter, but it gets hard.
iratewizard 5y ago
When I snitched on Google for doing messed up things in the name of "equity" I felt much better about taking on the project in the first place.
Bertio 5y ago
Yes. Quite a few times I’ve had some exciting inside info from my industry and I would love to spill it in my pseudo anonymous online hangouts! But then when I compose something that doesn’t give anything away I realize I’ve said nothing and don’t submit.
tinus_hn 5y ago
The adult version of ‘my dad work at Nintendo’
nomel 5y ago
I suppose I'm the opposite. I feel excited by the trust and camaraderie that goes with having secrets. I'm protecting something with real value, that we all worked hard for, rather than destroying it.

HMH 5y ago

Discussion of the previous leak: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857636

alexklark 5y ago

Omg somebody posted obvious info for general soldiers from manual that is already in possess of every other army in the world including taliban since its first print. By knowing rotation speed anyone on the forum who attack erm france can erm run faster around it and force it to erm surrender? Of course fat cats and war mongers that sits on taxpayers’ war money will never allow anything regarding they precious war secrets to be published. But then, imagine world of open sourced weapons...

bserge 5y ago
Open sourced weapons would benefit rich countries disproportionately. Even if poor countries have all the access to classified information, they can't do anything with it, as you said. However, the information can be sold.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  The OP is right, if half the army has it in a manual, then this info is not a secret for anyone relevant. For all intents and purposes the AK is the opensource weapon. Hard to see how open source weapons would benegit rich countries, they already have the designs.
- Igelau 5y ago
  Reminds me of the Nth Country Experiment https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/nth-country-experiment https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/nth-country-experimen... There's a difference between knowing how to do something (even without classified information) and being able to pull it off.

blauditore 5y ago

The blurred text is still readable (somewhat). How do you arrive at 31° per second if a full turn takes 11s?

addaon 5y ago
Rounding, perhaps? 31.45 * 11.45 ~= 360.
JorgeGT 5y ago
There's probably a slower acceleration phase at first?

dirtyid 5y ago

How come tankers seem to have loose lips? Haven't heard of similar leaks in World of Warships or DCS. Planes/Ships/Subs have more opsec because more important?

shakow 5y ago
This (https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/15/18623545/eagle-dynamics-f-16-manual-conspiracy-smuggling-russia https://www.polygon.com/2019/5/15/18623545/eagle-dynamics-f-...) happened w.r.t. DCS, and the most recent stuff in WoW is late WWII, s if something was to be revealed, it would interest military historians more than intel agencies :)
- dirtyid 5y ago
  Is there a naval game with modern hardware? I remember watching a multiplayer game on Twitch with SSNs and modern carriers. I feel like these communities are probably good places to bait active service people for classified info. Every once in a while on defense forums, there's deleted posts and reminders not to reveal capabilities indicating there's definitely folks out there eager to talk.
  - duskwuff 5y ago
    It wouldn't make for a very exciting or visually impressive game. Much of modern naval warfare is conducted at long range, sometimes even beyond the horizon. You don't see many submarine warfare simulators either, for essentially the same reason.
  - post_from_work 5y ago
    >>>Is there a naval game with modern hardware? Command: Modern Operations is your best bet. It's a $70 game. They sell the "Professional Edition" to the military for $20,000 per license. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Operations/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1076160/Command_Modern_Op... https://pro.matrixgames.com/game/command-professional-edition https://pro.matrixgames.com/game/command-professional-editio...
  - 5y ago

concordDance 5y ago

It's hard to see how leaking this kind of info matters... Everyone who actually cares about French tank turret turn rates and might get a very slight advantage from being able to train their tankers on slightly more accurate simulators (e.g. the Russians) already knows jt.

TheJoeMan 5y ago
That’s why this article worrying about blurring stuff seems so silly. China, if they already didn’t know, are fully capable of re-finding it from the forum. The only ones who don’t know are the regular public so this veil of secrecy on French tank turn rates is entirely for ego.
- manquer 5y ago
  More to limit any government reaction than anything else. If they didn't do some of this , their site may get blocked or get sued by the government.
oconnor663 5y ago
As admins, they probably don't want to put themselves in a position where they're making judgment calls about what matters and what doesn't. It's reasonable to have a bright line policy.

GoodJokes 5y ago

Oh no, whatever company will have to make a new secret one.

aasasd 5y ago

I keep wondering how Codemasters, and Sony/Psygnosis before them, obtained any kind of accurate info about F1 cars. Well, sure they have the license, but do the teams share numbers? Codemasters have mentioned on the forums that they have some real-life measurements that serve as basis for the game physics, so at least it's not pure fantasy (iirc the discussion was about the speed of gear shifting—players complained they can't click through five gears as fast as they want). Could the rivals conceivably peek in the game at some behavior they can't really discern through binoculars at testing and races? The sport had its moments of hide-and-seek in the past, with both FIA and competitors—e.g. the chassis that changed its height after driving out of the pits. Granted, the F1 series isn't spectacularly realistic, and Codies admitted some of the cars' behavior is softened relative to the reality, to not be too hard on the players (again, the gears).

timpattinson 5y ago
you can tell a lot about a racecar (estimate power, friction coefficient, aero coefficients) by just observing speed vs. time on a known racetrack, and that data is certainly publicly available. Although as others have said the F1 series isn't known for its physics.
himaraya 5y ago
No, F1 20xx remains an arcade sim with inaccurate driving dynamics. See Assetto Corsa for more accurate data sources.
- aasasd 5y ago
  Well I have trouble taking advice from you, because you're obviously not a real sim racer: you haven't even told me to buy a wheel.
hugh-avherald 5y ago
Thing is for a game you can control the cars performance by changing the laws of physics. For example, you don't have to know that this aerodynamic device causes a vortex at such and such a speed -- you can just say they're driving in a vacuum and 'this is how fast the car can go around this corner'.

stevage 5y ago

Tip to anyone who is trying to prevent sharing information: don't blur text. Black it out completely, at 100% opacity. It's not that hard to decipher the blurred text.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Also, make sure you black it out on the same layer. Plenty of people add a black box over something in a PDF and you can get the data just by selecting it, copying it, and pasting it.
- nikanj 5y ago
  The instructions we've used for years 1) Print it out 2) Cut out the parts you want to redact 3) Scan the paper This might be more work, but 1) It's easy enough for anyone to understand 2) It's really, really hard to get wrong
  - jsty 5y ago
    A bit easier but more or less as effective is redact on pc -> print -> scan Pretty much as infallible and saves a huge amount of scissor time.
- Daneel_ 5y ago
  Also also: black it out with an overly large box, otherwise it's possible to infer information from the length or height of the box. Eg, is the number two digits or ten? Box length might tell you.
- curryst 5y ago
  I saw someone recommend screenshotting the PDF to images, then converting those back to a PDF to ensure that you've scrubbed all non-visible artifacts.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

itronitron 5y ago

Probably the worst thing you can do if you see classified information or data out in the open is to call attention to it (publicly) and comment on it being classified or in some way 'notable'. Just because some information is public doesn't mean it's not classified.

cycomanic 5y ago

“Guys its not funnny to leak classified Documents of modern equipment you put the lives of many on stake who work daily with the Vehicles! Keep in Mind that those documents will be deleted immediately alongside sanctions. Thanks for reading!” I always think it is amazing how many buy into the lifes at risk hyperbole. Even if we assume that the content in the document isn't already known to all the "players" in the field, how much "advantage" can be gained from the manual (I suspect if it really was that important they would not put it in the manual). Moreover, if leaking the manual really puts the lifes of the crew at risk, would not leaking also put lifes at risk, i.e. the one of the people fighting the tanks?

hutzlibu 5y ago
"Moreover, if leaking the manual really puts the lifes of the crew at risk, would not leaking also put lifes at risk, i.e. the one of the people fighting the tanks?" Thats the point. No military is interested in making it easier for its enemies to fight you. And with irregular conflicts, you cannot assume everyone knows everything anyway. If you would have to fight this tank for real, don't you think, you want any information possible? Weak spots, sensors,.. or even getting enough knowledge to take over the tank. Military secrets have their reason, no matter how you judge the stance of said military.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  >No military is interested in making it easier for its enemies to fight you. Is this game made by the military?
  - thioordc 5y ago
    I could be wrong but I don’t think Gaijin was created or contracted by the military to make the game.
    - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      I dunno, in effect it's military propaganda. I know the game America's Army was funded and promoted by the US army at the time.

1cvmask 5y ago

The French Leclerq tank had the specs revealed. Previously they leaked the specs of the British Challenger Tank: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-specs-leaked-online-for-videogame/ https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-s...

dhx 5y ago

What type of classified information was leaked? From the screenshot provided it appears that the argument may have been about the turret rotation speed (probably as listed on Wikipedia?), whether it is 9 or 12 seconds for full rotation of the turret? The 9 second rotation speed was added to Wikipedia 5 years ago[1] and the 12 second rotation speed information added 8 years ago[2]. It appears the original information was perhaps sourced from a book titled "Char Leclerc - De la guerre froide aux conflits de demain" by author Marc Chassillan and published 16 years ago[3]. I find it hard to believe turret rotation speed would warrant classification given how readily observable this metric would be to an enemy. The chance of a tank operator accidentally demonstrating maximum turret rotation speed during a training exercise, public display or otherwise would also be very high, even if tank operators were instructed to never operate the turret at maximum rotation speed to avoid showing off a better metric than what may be known publicly. I would assume the concern, if warranted, would be for some other type of information that may be less observable e.g. a statement to the effect of "If you rotate the turret at maximum rotation speed for more than X cumulative seconds, the turret will enter a safety mode and only operate at maximum speed of X% of the normal maximum rotation speed. Maintenance procedure XYZ will need to be conducted to restore full performance of the turret." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff=749915425&oldid=745306689 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff=578966004&oldid=578864457 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leclerc_tank&diff... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-2726894385 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-272689...

UncleEntity 5y ago
Back in the day I went to Dragon Gunner school and knowing the rotational capabilities of a tank was fairly important since it was wire guided and if they can turn and shoot before you hit them… Pretty low battlefield survival probability with being a dragon gunner since they were relatively slow compared to the Soviet era tanks ability to get a shot off at the big puff of smoke you just created.
- dhx 5y ago
  Perhaps it was a metric many years ago which countries thought could be kept relatively unknown before everyone had cameras, instant communication, etc? The US seems to be happy showing off the turret rotation speed of the M1 Abrams at public demos as shown in [1], [2], [3] and [4]. There is no rotation speed listed on the Wikipedia page for this tank but elsewhere on the Internet appears to state 9 seconds for full rotation, which appears to match up with what the videos show. I find it hard to believe there is much benefit if any in classifying turret rotation speeds, or for that matter, most other parts of a tank in 2021. The underlying technology is ancient and readily described in all manner of books and videos. The overwhelmingly important factor in tank warfare today would be whether another platform with better visibility of surrounds (UAV, satellite, etc) has communicated enemy positions to the tank crew. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHcKEc_2Nc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKHcKEc_2Nc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLWb2AHLzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLWb2AHLzw [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XUQ2beGfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XUQ2beGfM [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mH-_h3_1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mH-_h3_1Q