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America is generally pretty allergic to socialist ideas. The tech sector in particular seems to gravitate towards libertarian ideologies, idolizing founders as

by zja 5y ago

America is generally pretty allergic to socialist ideas. The tech sector in particular seems to gravitate towards libertarian ideologies, idolizing founders as heroes who single handedly disrupt entire industries and are rewarded with massive wealth. I’d be really interested to see more product based startups follow the coop model, most of the tech coops i’ve heard of are dev shops. I imagine not being able to take VC money is a big challenge, and a reason we don’t see more tech coops.

johnebgd 5y ago
Why couldn’t you take VC money? The VC would just have more shareholders to contend with.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  VCs talk to 200 people a month with a single CEO or maybe the odd co-CEO. Along you come with a 20 person co-op leadership structure. Why would they take that dive? They want you to look/act/speak/organize like their previous successes. (Which is the same general reason why non-white males start at such a giant disadvantage )
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I think one reason it's harder is because typically VCs pay more money to have more decision making power and many coops are founded on the one member one vote principle. So despite how much money they'd contribute, they'd have no more say than the average member.
- zja 5y ago
  The defining feature of a worker coop is that it’s owned by the workers. That means they can’t give shares to VC’s. I’m sure there’s hybrid models where the company is only majority owned by workers, but I don’t know how common they are and I doubt they’re very attractive to VC’s for reasons others have mentioned.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
DizzyDoo 5y ago
My understanding of co-ops, while I haven't experienced them first-hand, is that they are still capitalist in nature - they are usually profit driven (though not at the expense of workers), pay is not equal, and the difference is a democratic decision making structure.
jimkleiber 5y ago
> America is generally pretty allergic to socialist ideas. I think yes, we often feel allergic to government ownership of things (at least that's how I see socialism, which may not be how others see it), yet I don't think that's why many of us don't like coops, as publicly traded companies are owned by many people through the stock markets. I think what may hinder the rise of coops in the US is ironically our allergy to democracy in business. We seem to love democracy in governance yet prefer top-down authoritarianism in business (and mostly in the military, minus the civilian leaders). Most coops I know strongly emphasize democratic governance, where all shareholders are equal in voting power, and most businesses I know are very far from that. I think the desire for and familiarity with top-down governance (which seems like authoritarianism to me) that we get in the business world is influencing many of our attitudes towards on democracy in governance, as top-down can be quicker, more adaptive, more efficient, etc However, I wonder if the perception of being exploited by some of these large companies, especially in the consumer tech sector, will lead to a demand for more democratic/representative governance, as we see with some DAOs and more. I personally would love to see more coop Clubhouses, Facebook, TikToks, etc. Let the users 1) have more decision making power on the platform and 2) receive more profits from the services.
- zja 5y ago
  Very well said! You might find this talk interesting, it’s about “democracy at work” as a new-ish flavor of socialism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Ahh thanks! I'll check it out. I think unfortunately the word socialism evokes so many emotions and different interpretations in people that I try to not use it, although I do like the concept of "democracy at work" :-) perhaps I'll change perspective after the video
- Zababa 5y ago
  > yet I don't think that's why many of us don't like coops, as publicly traded companies are owned by many people through the stock markets. That's not the same thing. The concept of coops is that the people that work in them own them.

by zja 5y ago

johnebgd 5y ago

Why couldn’t you take VC money? The VC would just have more shareholders to contend with.

brianwawok 5y ago
VCs talk to 200 people a month with a single CEO or maybe the odd co-CEO. Along you come with a 20 person co-op leadership structure. Why would they take that dive? They want you to look/act/speak/organize like their previous successes. (Which is the same general reason why non-white males start at such a giant disadvantage )
jimkleiber 5y ago
I think one reason it's harder is because typically VCs pay more money to have more decision making power and many coops are founded on the one member one vote principle. So despite how much money they'd contribute, they'd have no more say than the average member.
zja 5y ago
The defining feature of a worker coop is that it’s owned by the workers. That means they can’t give shares to VC’s. I’m sure there’s hybrid models where the company is only majority owned by workers, but I don’t know how common they are and I doubt they’re very attractive to VC’s for reasons others have mentioned.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

DizzyDoo 5y ago

My understanding of co-ops, while I haven't experienced them first-hand, is that they are still capitalist in nature - they are usually profit driven (though not at the expense of workers), pay is not equal, and the difference is a democratic decision making structure.

jimkleiber 5y ago

> America is generally pretty allergic to socialist ideas. I think yes, we often feel allergic to government ownership of things (at least that's how I see socialism, which may not be how others see it), yet I don't think that's why many of us don't like coops, as publicly traded companies are owned by many people through the stock markets. I think what may hinder the rise of coops in the US is ironically our allergy to democracy in business. We seem to love democracy in governance yet prefer top-down authoritarianism in business (and mostly in the military, minus the civilian leaders). Most coops I know strongly emphasize democratic governance, where all shareholders are equal in voting power, and most businesses I know are very far from that. I think the desire for and familiarity with top-down governance (which seems like authoritarianism to me) that we get in the business world is influencing many of our attitudes towards on democracy in governance, as top-down can be quicker, more adaptive, more efficient, etc However, I wonder if the perception of being exploited by some of these large companies, especially in the consumer tech sector, will lead to a demand for more democratic/representative governance, as we see with some DAOs and more. I personally would love to see more coop Clubhouses, Facebook, TikToks, etc. Let the users 1) have more decision making power on the platform and 2) receive more profits from the services.

zja 5y ago
Very well said! You might find this talk interesting, it’s about “democracy at work” as a new-ish flavor of socialism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Ahh thanks! I'll check it out. I think unfortunately the word socialism evokes so many emotions and different interpretations in people that I try to not use it, although I do like the concept of "democracy at work" :-) perhaps I'll change perspective after the video
Zababa 5y ago
> yet I don't think that's why many of us don't like coops, as publicly traded companies are owned by many people through the stock markets. That's not the same thing. The concept of coops is that the people that work in them own them.