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Back in the 70s, the KMT definitely supported the One China Principle. They were still firmly dreaming about retaking the mainland. Back then the mainland and T

Back in the 70s, the KMT definitely supported the One China Principle. They were still firmly dreaming about retaking the mainland. Back then the mainland and Taiwan even regularly fired shells at each other, not to actually attack, but as a statement by both sides to foreigners that the China-Taiwan issue is an internal China matter (namely a civil war), and not one of Taiwan being an independent state.

azernik 5y ago
And it was personal for the KMT! These were people who had been middle-aged, established bureaucrats and generals in China in 1949.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  I really made a mistake making my first sentence "did the KMT really?..." Yes, they did, I know that. KMT have always mostly been shitheads. The more important point is I don't see KMT having any leverage over the US in the 1970s, so it doesn't matter what they think.
  - CheezeIt 5y ago
    So then the U.N. and China both have an empty seat for Taiwan.
rsj_hn 5y ago
We have North and South Korea when the communist revolution succeeded in the north but not the South. In the U.S., West Virginia split off from Virginia when most of Virginia joined the confederacy but a part didn't. Civil Wars, partial rebellions, partial revolutions, are one the mechanisms of state formation.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  We have North and South Korea because of a US invasion, the massacre of tens of thousands of people in the South with any sort of left/social-liberal sympathies, and a fully fascist government propped up by the US that lasted until the 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilminism It's nothing to respect. The US is something to respect, because it's got a lot more economic and military power than poor backwards NK. Through the US, South Korea became a country. That's the mechanism of state formation. China doesn't bow to the US, so it's an entirely different dynamic. I say entirely different but the creation of Taiwan was a forceful takeover of an inhabited island by a retreating army who ruled with an iron fist. It was under martial law for 40 years. The nicest thing I hear people say about Taiwan is that it's 1) not China, and 2) not that oppressive anymore. The idea that China would suddenly respect that is weird. Plenty of people in Taiwan support unification. It also isn't like people who also wish to deal with China don't deal with Taiwan as if it were a country, they just don't call it one. It's like when they tried to call gay marriage "civil unions" in order to maintain the letter of homophobic policies while abandoning the substance.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > We have North and South Korea because of a US invasion No, this is demonstrably false. Korea was annexed by Japan in 1910. After the war, Korea was partitioned -- much like Europe -- with North Korea occupied by the Soviet Union and South Korea occupied by the US along the 38th parallel in 1945. Except the nature of the respective military presence was very different. The Soviet Union and China brought in large quanties of military equipment and troops, while actively supporting communist guerrillas in the South (but there were never more than ~5000 such guerillas). North Korea invaded the South on June 25, 1950 with ~200K troops and 75K PLA troops of Korean ethnicity, whereas the US had 2-300 troops in all of South Korea. The North attacked with 280 tanks furnished by the Soviet Union, whereas South Korea had no tanks, as the US refused to provide them with any prior to 1950. The North had 110 attack bombers, and 150 Yak fighter planes provided by the USSR. The US did not give any aircraft to the South, and there were only 22 aircraft in the South. The US had basically a token military presence in South Korea as it was not interested in either invading the North or building military bases in the South. You can read more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Prelude_to_war_(1950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Prelude_to_war_(195... To call this a "US invasion" is absurd. Moreover, somehow trying to make this about the boogeyman of "fighting fascism" or even "civil unions" is bizarre -- what is the state of civil unions in North Korea or China? What is the state of freedom of expression? Or freedom of religion? If you are going to be using words like "fascist", then they are much better applied to North Korea or China than to South Korea or Taiwan. Please don't spread this type of disinfo on public forums.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      >To call this a "US invasion" is absurd A US invasion to prop up the Rhee government that massacred leftists is the only reason there isn't a unified Korea under North Korean rule. You can argue that's a good thing, but trying to claim the US did not invade is absurd. And on the fascist bogeyman parts, any improvement in those areas happened in South Korea and Taiwan rather recently, in the past thirty years or so.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago

azernik 5y ago

And it was personal for the KMT! These were people who had been middle-aged, established bureaucrats and generals in China in 1949.

Ericson2314 5y ago
I really made a mistake making my first sentence "did the KMT really?..." Yes, they did, I know that. KMT have always mostly been shitheads. The more important point is I don't see KMT having any leverage over the US in the 1970s, so it doesn't matter what they think.
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  So then the U.N. and China both have an empty seat for Taiwan.

rsj_hn 5y ago

We have North and South Korea when the communist revolution succeeded in the north but not the South. In the U.S., West Virginia split off from Virginia when most of Virginia joined the confederacy but a part didn't. Civil Wars, partial rebellions, partial revolutions, are one the mechanisms of state formation.

pessimizer 5y ago
We have North and South Korea because of a US invasion, the massacre of tens of thousands of people in the South with any sort of left/social-liberal sympathies, and a fully fascist government propped up by the US that lasted until the 80s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilminism It's nothing to respect. The US is something to respect, because it's got a lot more economic and military power than poor backwards NK. Through the US, South Korea became a country. That's the mechanism of state formation. China doesn't bow to the US, so it's an entirely different dynamic. I say entirely different but the creation of Taiwan was a forceful takeover of an inhabited island by a retreating army who ruled with an iron fist. It was under martial law for 40 years. The nicest thing I hear people say about Taiwan is that it's 1) not China, and 2) not that oppressive anymore. The idea that China would suddenly respect that is weird. Plenty of people in Taiwan support unification. It also isn't like people who also wish to deal with China don't deal with Taiwan as if it were a country, they just don't call it one. It's like when they tried to call gay marriage "civil unions" in order to maintain the letter of homophobic policies while abandoning the substance.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  > We have North and South Korea because of a US invasion No, this is demonstrably false. Korea was annexed by Japan in 1910. After the war, Korea was partitioned -- much like Europe -- with North Korea occupied by the Soviet Union and South Korea occupied by the US along the 38th parallel in 1945. Except the nature of the respective military presence was very different. The Soviet Union and China brought in large quanties of military equipment and troops, while actively supporting communist guerrillas in the South (but there were never more than ~5000 such guerillas). North Korea invaded the South on June 25, 1950 with ~200K troops and 75K PLA troops of Korean ethnicity, whereas the US had 2-300 troops in all of South Korea. The North attacked with 280 tanks furnished by the Soviet Union, whereas South Korea had no tanks, as the US refused to provide them with any prior to 1950. The North had 110 attack bombers, and 150 Yak fighter planes provided by the USSR. The US did not give any aircraft to the South, and there were only 22 aircraft in the South. The US had basically a token military presence in South Korea as it was not interested in either invading the North or building military bases in the South. You can read more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Prelude_to_war_(1950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Prelude_to_war_(195... To call this a "US invasion" is absurd. Moreover, somehow trying to make this about the boogeyman of "fighting fascism" or even "civil unions" is bizarre -- what is the state of civil unions in North Korea or China? What is the state of freedom of expression? Or freedom of religion? If you are going to be using words like "fascist", then they are much better applied to North Korea or China than to South Korea or Taiwan. Please don't spread this type of disinfo on public forums.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    >To call this a "US invasion" is absurd A US invasion to prop up the Rhee government that massacred leftists is the only reason there isn't a unified Korea under North Korean rule. You can argue that's a good thing, but trying to claim the US did not invade is absurd. And on the fascist bogeyman parts, any improvement in those areas happened in South Korea and Taiwan rather recently, in the past thirty years or so.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago