5 ms·

I found that never saying no, but always responding with a list of what would be necessary in order to accomplish something, will connect a lot better than nega

I found that never saying no, but always responding with a list of what would be necessary in order to accomplish something, will connect a lot better than negativity. Contrast: "We need this by January." "No." with, "We need this by January." "Let's discuss the hiring process for the new team members we're going to need to accomplish that." Then they will either say "no" (what you were going for all along), or they will say "yes" and give you more resources. It is really quite rare to be asked for something that is truly impossible, usually it is merely impossible within the organizational boundaries you're used to working within. Also, people hate being told no but love saying it, so if you want a "no," you need to work out how it's going to be them saying it.

rprospero 5y ago
Most experienced managers that I've met can work around that sort of comment: "We need this by January" "Let's discuss the hiring process for the new team members we're going to need to accomplish that." "We don't have the budget for hiring at the moment. If more headcount is truly necessary, you are welcome to use your salary to obtain it." 90% of the time, the project arrives lat, but there's no other major consequences and the manager points to this as evidence that you were padding your budget with superfluous resource. 9% of the time, you buy a new web server on your own credit card and the manager brags to his boss about coming in under budget. 1% of the time, catastrophe hits, the company goes bankrupt, and he tells everyone that call for a reference that your incompetence drove the company out of business. If you think this is hyperbole, a previous employer stated that a competent sysadmin would never lose data, so back-ups were a waste of money and made admins pay for them out of pocket.
- ErrantX 5y ago
  > you are welcome to use your salary to obtain it > 9% of the time, you buy a new web server on your own credit card and the manager brags to his boss about coming in under budget I.... genuinely can't believe this is a common line. Companies do ask people to do ridiculous things in return for very little remuneration. But to fund the company yourself? (I do get the point your making BTW but the example can't be real!) > a previous employer stated that a competent sysadmin would never lose data, so back-ups were a waste of money and made admins pay for them out of pocket. The first part of that sounds like the natural tech-illiteracy of a business leader; the second part says they don't believe their own schtick.
  - rprospero 5y ago
    > The first part of that sounds like the natural tech-illiteracy of a business leader; the second part says they don't believe their own schtick. You're right that what I wrote did sound that way, but that's because my wording wasn't correct. No one was ever "forced" to pay for back ups. One guy decided that he wasn't going to pay for them himself. After a couple of years, his server went down and there was no back-up. The boss fired him for negligence and then sent the server off to an expensive data-retrieval company. Legal then began a lawsuit against him, asking for the cost of the data-retrieval to be repaid. Also, any time someone called for an employment reference, the canned response was "We're in the middle of a negligence lawsuit against him at the moment, so the legal department says that all I can do is confirm that he worked here." Eventually, he reached a settlement with the company for about half of the data recovery costs. However, no other admin ever dared not making their own personal back-ups again.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- PeterisP 5y ago
  This is not how experienced or skilled managers handle it, this is how abusive incompetent managers act if people let them get away with it. The behavior you describe is both unprofessional (as in, ineffective) and immoral. The proper response to a manager suggesting something like you describe is "fuck you" in just as many words - have some self-respect, tolerating it is masochistic nonsense, there's no reasonable reason to pay out of your pocket for company needs. If they're your top boss then you don't want to work for people like that (and you don't want references from people like that); even if you're desperate, find a way out and quit (because most companies are not how you describe); if there's anybody above them, such a request (pay out of your pocket for webserver or backups) should be escalated with a "this is unacceptable, either you replace this manager or replace me" - not as an empty threat, but as a real course of action; because if the top management considers it acceptable, again, you should not be working there. The IT job market isn't that bad anywhere so that sombeody would need to tolerate abuse that hits both your wallet and self-respect.
- anm89 5y ago
  I have never ever heard of a manager asking an W2 employee to achieve a project by hiring out of their salary.
jeffrallen 5y ago
> if you want a "no," you need to work out how it's going to be them saying it. You, sir or madam, are an evil genius. I'd like to have you on my side of the negotiating table...
spaetzleesser 5y ago
""We need this by January." "Let's discuss the hiring process for the new team members we're going to need to accomplish that."" The usual response is "Right now we don't have time/budget but we will look into it" and nothing gets done. But the deadline still stands. My main complaint is that a lot of managers don't really work with their underlings on issues to improve things.
PeterisP 5y ago
And on the other hand, such an approach really helps in cases where extra resources would fix the problem. I recall a case many years ago when my employer had a networking issue at one of the branches where we could not get to a solution for weeks... until at one meeting with the outsourced provider reiterating that a proper fix was impossible, they started to explain why it was impossible, saying that they'd need to replace all the hardware along the route which would be extremely expensive. At which point we asked how much, they named a number, and it was easily affordable compared to the problems it was causing us so the issue was approved in the same meeting. And if only they had started with the same approach, we could have had it fixed right away instead of trying to fix an "impossible" issue for weeks.
GoToRO 5y ago
While I agree with you, at that point I’m doing my manager’s job. I only do the job I’m being paid for.

rprospero 5y ago

Most experienced managers that I've met can work around that sort of comment: "We need this by January" "Let's discuss the hiring process for the new team members we're going to need to accomplish that." "We don't have the budget for hiring at the moment. If more headcount is truly necessary, you are welcome to use your salary to obtain it." 90% of the time, the project arrives lat, but there's no other major consequences and the manager points to this as evidence that you were padding your budget with superfluous resource. 9% of the time, you buy a new web server on your own credit card and the manager brags to his boss about coming in under budget. 1% of the time, catastrophe hits, the company goes bankrupt, and he tells everyone that call for a reference that your incompetence drove the company out of business. If you think this is hyperbole, a previous employer stated that a competent sysadmin would never lose data, so back-ups were a waste of money and made admins pay for them out of pocket.

ErrantX 5y ago
> you are welcome to use your salary to obtain it > 9% of the time, you buy a new web server on your own credit card and the manager brags to his boss about coming in under budget I.... genuinely can't believe this is a common line. Companies do ask people to do ridiculous things in return for very little remuneration. But to fund the company yourself? (I do get the point your making BTW but the example can't be real!) > a previous employer stated that a competent sysadmin would never lose data, so back-ups were a waste of money and made admins pay for them out of pocket. The first part of that sounds like the natural tech-illiteracy of a business leader; the second part says they don't believe their own schtick.
- rprospero 5y ago
  > The first part of that sounds like the natural tech-illiteracy of a business leader; the second part says they don't believe their own schtick. You're right that what I wrote did sound that way, but that's because my wording wasn't correct. No one was ever "forced" to pay for back ups. One guy decided that he wasn't going to pay for them himself. After a couple of years, his server went down and there was no back-up. The boss fired him for negligence and then sent the server off to an expensive data-retrieval company. Legal then began a lawsuit against him, asking for the cost of the data-retrieval to be repaid. Also, any time someone called for an employment reference, the canned response was "We're in the middle of a negligence lawsuit against him at the moment, so the legal department says that all I can do is confirm that he worked here." Eventually, he reached a settlement with the company for about half of the data recovery costs. However, no other admin ever dared not making their own personal back-ups again.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
PeterisP 5y ago
This is not how experienced or skilled managers handle it, this is how abusive incompetent managers act if people let them get away with it. The behavior you describe is both unprofessional (as in, ineffective) and immoral. The proper response to a manager suggesting something like you describe is "fuck you" in just as many words - have some self-respect, tolerating it is masochistic nonsense, there's no reasonable reason to pay out of your pocket for company needs. If they're your top boss then you don't want to work for people like that (and you don't want references from people like that); even if you're desperate, find a way out and quit (because most companies are not how you describe); if there's anybody above them, such a request (pay out of your pocket for webserver or backups) should be escalated with a "this is unacceptable, either you replace this manager or replace me" - not as an empty threat, but as a real course of action; because if the top management considers it acceptable, again, you should not be working there. The IT job market isn't that bad anywhere so that sombeody would need to tolerate abuse that hits both your wallet and self-respect.
anm89 5y ago
I have never ever heard of a manager asking an W2 employee to achieve a project by hiring out of their salary.

jeffrallen 5y ago

> if you want a "no," you need to work out how it's going to be them saying it. You, sir or madam, are an evil genius. I'd like to have you on my side of the negotiating table...

spaetzleesser 5y ago

""We need this by January." "Let's discuss the hiring process for the new team members we're going to need to accomplish that."" The usual response is "Right now we don't have time/budget but we will look into it" and nothing gets done. But the deadline still stands. My main complaint is that a lot of managers don't really work with their underlings on issues to improve things.

PeterisP 5y ago

And on the other hand, such an approach really helps in cases where extra resources would fix the problem. I recall a case many years ago when my employer had a networking issue at one of the branches where we could not get to a solution for weeks... until at one meeting with the outsourced provider reiterating that a proper fix was impossible, they started to explain why it was impossible, saying that they'd need to replace all the hardware along the route which would be extremely expensive. At which point we asked how much, they named a number, and it was easily affordable compared to the problems it was causing us so the issue was approved in the same meeting. And if only they had started with the same approach, we could have had it fixed right away instead of trying to fix an "impossible" issue for weeks.

GoToRO 5y ago

While I agree with you, at that point I’m doing my manager’s job. I only do the job I’m being paid for.