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The market you compete in is the market your users imagine you offer similar solutions. Not the market of how you describe yourself. Docker's features usually

by Azsy 5y ago

The market you compete in is the market your users imagine you offer similar solutions. Not the market of how you describe yourself. Docker's features usually include "its easier to create and maintain a system". That Nix does this different and better doesn't matter when a user is just looking to solve that one problem. At that moment, for that user, Nix is just a fancy config manager with one click deploy features and competing with docker.

Ericson2314 5y ago
I would argue Docker and Kubernetes are a bunch of crap popularized by people lulled into blowing all their money to cloud providers and compelled out of envy to imitate big tech -style deployments, even though it means taking on extra problems you absolutely don't need to deal with. Also, Docker and Kubernetes are...just more layers. There is no cleaning up what came before. The Nix ecosystem is about drilling all the way down and cleaning up the prior tech debt. It's a fundamentally different approach.
capableweb 5y ago
Again, misunderstandings seems to run rampant in this thread... No, Docker doesn't maintain systems, it handles applications. No one runs systems inside of Docker. People run applications with Docker, and Docker itself runs on systems. And no, Nix doesn't "do this differently and better", as what Docker does and Nix does is wildly different. Nix is for machines, not applications. Sure, a subset of features from Nix can be used like Docker, but that doesn't mean Nix and Docker is the same, no matter what you think of markets or whatever.
- _red 5y ago
  I think what the parent is alluding to is: What is the practical point of using Nix when similar outcomes can be reached with more mainstream solutions? In other words, suppose I want to deploy a web app that depends on Nginx, PHP, and PostgreSQL. I could: (a) Run all as docker-compose type solution (b) Run all as scripted Nix solution (c) Install packages manually on general purpose OS Lets ignore "c" for the moment as the goal is to avoid that exact scenario. Given the prevalence and widespread support for "a" why should sysadmins choose "b"?
  - capableweb 5y ago
    I don't understand how you can use docker-compose, docker, Kubernetes or anything else to achieve the same thing as NixOS. NixOS gives you a fully reproducible personal computing system, from boot config, window manager, partitioning to applications, home directories and everything in between. What mainstream options are available for doing this? Guix could be one option, but it's not mainstream so I'm not sure what tools you are referring to.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      And why would someone want that? Sure it sounds theoretically nice, especially if I was still working in IT. But learning another system with a poor ui has a large cost for a theoretical benefit.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Eh you can do the same thing (or close enough) with a bash install script on a "stock" linux system and then a docker set up with the applications that that you want. Or with ansible. it really depends on the end goal. Not everyone needs every single bit to be the same. Or you can just image a drive. It depends on the end goal and often multiple solutions will get you there.
      - _red 5y ago
        moreover, you can also use docker digest instead of tags, that is: instead of docker pull postgresql:11 you can do docker pull postgresql@sha:xxxx....
      - ris 5y ago
        These are the nasty solutions I have to deal with at work all the time and my entire job consists of handling things when the "quick" bash cloud init script that someone wrote and various people have made additions to over the years goes wrong. Bash scripts fail at this task because they are generally not convergent. Ansible makes a basic effort at being convergent, but most of the scripts I've seen are extremely naive about the ways in which a configuration can diverge.

by Azsy 5y ago

Ericson2314 5y ago

I would argue Docker and Kubernetes are a bunch of crap popularized by people lulled into blowing all their money to cloud providers and compelled out of envy to imitate big tech -style deployments, even though it means taking on extra problems you absolutely don't need to deal with. Also, Docker and Kubernetes are...just more layers. There is no cleaning up what came before. The Nix ecosystem is about drilling all the way down and cleaning up the prior tech debt. It's a fundamentally different approach.

capableweb 5y ago

Again, misunderstandings seems to run rampant in this thread... No, Docker doesn't maintain systems, it handles applications. No one runs systems inside of Docker. People run applications with Docker, and Docker itself runs on systems. And no, Nix doesn't "do this differently and better", as what Docker does and Nix does is wildly different. Nix is for machines, not applications. Sure, a subset of features from Nix can be used like Docker, but that doesn't mean Nix and Docker is the same, no matter what you think of markets or whatever.

_red 5y ago
I think what the parent is alluding to is: What is the practical point of using Nix when similar outcomes can be reached with more mainstream solutions? In other words, suppose I want to deploy a web app that depends on Nginx, PHP, and PostgreSQL. I could: (a) Run all as docker-compose type solution (b) Run all as scripted Nix solution (c) Install packages manually on general purpose OS Lets ignore "c" for the moment as the goal is to avoid that exact scenario. Given the prevalence and widespread support for "a" why should sysadmins choose "b"?
- capableweb 5y ago
  I don't understand how you can use docker-compose, docker, Kubernetes or anything else to achieve the same thing as NixOS. NixOS gives you a fully reproducible personal computing system, from boot config, window manager, partitioning to applications, home directories and everything in between. What mainstream options are available for doing this? Guix could be one option, but it's not mainstream so I'm not sure what tools you are referring to.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    And why would someone want that? Sure it sounds theoretically nice, especially if I was still working in IT. But learning another system with a poor ui has a large cost for a theoretical benefit.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Eh you can do the same thing (or close enough) with a bash install script on a "stock" linux system and then a docker set up with the applications that that you want. Or with ansible. it really depends on the end goal. Not everyone needs every single bit to be the same. Or you can just image a drive. It depends on the end goal and often multiple solutions will get you there.
    - _red 5y ago
      moreover, you can also use docker digest instead of tags, that is: instead of docker pull postgresql:11 you can do docker pull postgresql@sha:xxxx....
    - ris 5y ago
      These are the nasty solutions I have to deal with at work all the time and my entire job consists of handling things when the "quick" bash cloud init script that someone wrote and various people have made additions to over the years goes wrong. Bash scripts fail at this task because they are generally not convergent. Ansible makes a basic effort at being convergent, but most of the scripts I've seen are extremely naive about the ways in which a configuration can diverge.