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[flagged]

civilized 5y ago
As Mounk's essay notes, the vast majority of the public agrees with the professor on affirmative action. MIT just told that public what it thinks of their views.
- metagame 5y ago
  As I've said multiple times in the thread, my own viewpoints are very close to the professor's! Public opinion of people who are not already in the system, however, is a different game, and you should always go with the safest bet if doing propaganda. It's critical.
  - civilized 5y ago
    I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you believe would be alienated by opposition to race-based admission preferences. Again, you seem to be ignoring that this could go in the other direction, and in fact we'd expect it to, based on the overwhelming and diverse opposition to race-based preferences that we see in public polling. A possible way forward is to thoroughly vet any potential public speaker to verify they have never said anything controversial. It's sad that we could be reduced to this, but it's understandable.
    - metagame 5y ago
      You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstration of exactly the reason why having a person with tact give a speech for outreach is critical.
      - civilized 5y ago
        I'm baffled by this response. I've done my best to summarize what you seem to be saying and what I see as the blind spots. I don't even see you as an opponent. We seem to disagree on a particular PR tactic and how it plays with the public. Is "I get what you're saying and it's reasonable" something that a person who is deliberately trying to represent your ideas in the worst possible light would say?
        dang 5y ago
        You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else. You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - dang 5y ago
        You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else. You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        civilized 5y ago
        Thanks dang. I agree with you completely after seeing the results. If I could edit those comments at this point I would. I've done my best with the ones I still can.
    - tomnipotent 5y ago
      > alienates a lot of people too Who cares? With that attitude we wouldn't have ended slavery, woman wouldn't be able to vote, civil rights wouldn't have happened, and hetero marriage would still be the only option.
      - civilized 5y ago
        For those who see race-based preferences as an urgent form of social progress, this does make sense, yes. I don't, and most Americans don't, but that doesn't make us right.
dang 5y ago
civilized should have taken out the "sea of words" swipe and you should have edited out the swipes from your comment here, as well as in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28819420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28819420. Someone else breaking the site guidelines doesn't make it ok for you to do so. Please do a better job of sticking to them.
poetaster 5y ago
I think you are missing the point that affirmative action, which I am for, is done a disservice when we descend to PR games. Knee jerk reactions serve no one.

[flagged]

As Mounk's essay notes, the vast majority of the public agrees with the professor on affirmative action. MIT just told that public what it thinks of their views.

metagame 5y ago
As I've said multiple times in the thread, my own viewpoints are very close to the professor's! Public opinion of people who are not already in the system, however, is a different game, and you should always go with the safest bet if doing propaganda. It's critical.
- civilized 5y ago
  I get what you're saying and it's reasonable. I think you greatly overestimate the objective rigor and correctness of your analysis, but I get it. Sanctioning widely-held views as not meritorious alienates a lot of people too. They don't seem to figure into your calculations. Based on your other posts, you seem to think that the most important audience for the talk is prospective climate change researchers, who you believe would be alienated by opposition to race-based admission preferences. Again, you seem to be ignoring that this could go in the other direction, and in fact we'd expect it to, based on the overwhelming and diverse opposition to race-based preferences that we see in public polling. A possible way forward is to thoroughly vet any potential public speaker to verify they have never said anything controversial. It's sad that we could be reduced to this, but it's understandable.
  - metagame 5y ago
    You're wording this in a way that's deliberately representing your ideological opponents in the worst possible faith and light, and if nothing else it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of not only the views of your opponents, but of people who would be sympathetic to your views if you would take ten seconds to apply tact to your words. This is the exact opposite of a good-faith argument and a demonstration of exactly the reason why having a person with tact give a speech for outreach is critical.
    - civilized 5y ago
      I'm baffled by this response. I've done my best to summarize what you seem to be saying and what I see as the blind spots. I don't even see you as an opponent. We seem to disagree on a particular PR tactic and how it plays with the public. Is "I get what you're saying and it's reasonable" something that a person who is deliberately trying to represent your ideas in the worst possible light would say?
      - dang 5y ago
        You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else. You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - dang 5y ago
      You guys are both putting too much energy into commenting about the "you" at the other end of the discussion. Not only is it leading you to break the site guidelines, it makes the discussion noisier and more tedious for everybody else. You both have interesting points to make. If you'd stick to making them substantively, thoughtfully, and respectfully, the thread would be much better. "Respectfully" generally includes avoiding telling people things about themselves that are not likely to land well. There are times when that's necessary, but talking to strangers over the internet is not one of them. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - civilized 5y ago
        Thanks dang. I agree with you completely after seeing the results. If I could edit those comments at this point I would. I've done my best with the ones I still can.
  - tomnipotent 5y ago
    > alienates a lot of people too Who cares? With that attitude we wouldn't have ended slavery, woman wouldn't be able to vote, civil rights wouldn't have happened, and hetero marriage would still be the only option.
    - civilized 5y ago
      For those who see race-based preferences as an urgent form of social progress, this does make sense, yes. I don't, and most Americans don't, but that doesn't make us right.

dang 5y ago

civilized should have taken out the "sea of words" swipe and you should have edited out the swipes from your comment here, as well as in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28819420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28819420. Someone else breaking the site guidelines doesn't make it ok for you to do so. Please do a better job of sticking to them.

poetaster 5y ago

I think you are missing the point that affirmative action, which I am for, is done a disservice when we descend to PR games. Knee jerk reactions serve no one.