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I have no opinion about NixOS but every time I read someone touting its merits I feel like I live in a parallel universe. NixOS seems to solve problems I never

I have no opinion about NixOS but every time I read someone touting its merits I feel like I live in a parallel universe. NixOS seems to solve problems I never had at extreme costs to its general usability. I don’t care that I can rebuilt a computer identical to mine in minutes. I don’t change computer often enough for it to matter and the tweaking I do is minimal because frankly tweaking configuration is not fun and feel like a gigantic waste of time. Same things for reproducible builds, I like them as a developer for the things I work on because they make things easier to manage and debug. I couldn’t care less as a user. I just want things to work. I guess it could make sense for servers as an alternative to provisioning tools but then it seems to me like it’s competing with docker and kubernetes and I have never seen a convincing argument about why it would be better. I think that’s why you see a lot of things you view as dislike. Plainly speaking I think most people don’t see the point.

xyzzyz 5y ago
> I guess it could make sense for servers as an alternative to provisioning tools but then it seems to me like it’s competing with docker and kubernetes It’s not competing, it’s complementing. Think of it as a fully deterministic “docker build”.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  Yes but « docker build » already exists and can already be made deterministic so it’s indeed somewhat competing. Would anything be easier by using Nix? Right now it seems to me like a large ordeal with little to no benefits and my interaction with the Nix community hasn’t been very convincing. A lot of Nix users seem to believe determinism and reproducibility of everything to be enough of a justification in itself. I don’t think it’s worth the pain.
  - bergkvist 5y ago
    The biggest limitation of using Docker for building images is that it does not allow for composition. You can't simply say you want to combine a Python and Rust image for example. With dockerTools from nix (https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images), this kind of composition is easy. You also end up with significantly smaller image sizes - containing only exactly the dependencies needed for the image to work, which is also good from a security perspective - since it decreases the attack surface.
  - ris 5y ago
    > « docker build » already exists and can already be made deterministic Truly deterministic Dockerfiles are a rare thing to find among the ecosystem. And we haven't even got into docker's poor support for unprivileged container building which leads to weird solutions using dind when you need to build an image from inside a container..
dgb23 5y ago
Two examples to get a taste of the tradeoffs and utility it provides would be postgrest and IHL. I think it’s sexy. But like you I haven’t had the time to really dive into it and understand it. The promise is simplification, both operational and in terms of the runtime.
capableweb 5y ago
> it seems to me like it’s competing with docker and kubernetes and I have never seen a convincing argument about why it would be better. This seems to indicate a huge mismatch between what you think Nix/OS is compared to what it actually is. NixOS is for creating/maintaining systems, Docker is for running applications and Kubernetes is for running applications but across multiple servers, neither of those tools are like the other really.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  > Docker is for running applications Yes but no. Docker is mainly used for its ability to build and reuse standardised containers. It’s very much a distribution mechanism (I mean that’s why it’s called docker). From other comments I get the feeling that NixOS could be used to build reproducible containers in a way that remind me of building tools like Bazel but it’s not entirely clear to me why you would chose to do that nor if it’s actually a goal of the product.
  - easygenes 5y ago
    Docker and Kubernetes are almost strictly a subset of the power within the Nix ecosystem.
  - jbboehr 5y ago
    > NixOS could be used to build reproducible containers You absolutely can build docker images using Nix via dockerTools.buildImage [0]. [0]: https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images
- Azsy 5y ago
  The market you compete in is the market your users imagine you offer similar solutions. Not the market of how you describe yourself. Docker's features usually include "its easier to create and maintain a system". That Nix does this different and better doesn't matter when a user is just looking to solve that one problem. At that moment, for that user, Nix is just a fancy config manager with one click deploy features and competing with docker.
Ericson2314 5y ago
The "market" for Nix is honestly OCD people that care about the software production process --- "god willing" our fastidiousness will eventually pay off as everyone else slowly boils in "accidental complexity", and our decisions finally make sense to others. In the meantime, it's hard to convey the benefits. For now, I argue there is surprisingly little business case to care about developer efficiency --- VCs want you to blow cash, and increased developer outsourcing with remote work is covering the stupid complexity costs the cloud imposed. Mainly, businesses are demand constrained. That there is tons of embarrassing supply chain issues rights now is to me in accordance with this. America has gotten really good at advertising and customer acquisition, but we've lost skills at actually doing the basics, as it is really easy to service whatever demand you can scrounge up. So far now, you either really want a clean workbench, even at the cost of dealing with the complexity that cleanup exposes, or you don't. That says whether Nix is or isn't for you.

xyzzyz 5y ago

> I guess it could make sense for servers as an alternative to provisioning tools but then it seems to me like it’s competing with docker and kubernetes It’s not competing, it’s complementing. Think of it as a fully deterministic “docker build”.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago
Yes but « docker build » already exists and can already be made deterministic so it’s indeed somewhat competing. Would anything be easier by using Nix? Right now it seems to me like a large ordeal with little to no benefits and my interaction with the Nix community hasn’t been very convincing. A lot of Nix users seem to believe determinism and reproducibility of everything to be enough of a justification in itself. I don’t think it’s worth the pain.
- bergkvist 5y ago
  The biggest limitation of using Docker for building images is that it does not allow for composition. You can't simply say you want to combine a Python and Rust image for example. With dockerTools from nix (https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images), this kind of composition is easy. You also end up with significantly smaller image sizes - containing only exactly the dependencies needed for the image to work, which is also good from a security perspective - since it decreases the attack surface.
- ris 5y ago
  > « docker build » already exists and can already be made deterministic Truly deterministic Dockerfiles are a rare thing to find among the ecosystem. And we haven't even got into docker's poor support for unprivileged container building which leads to weird solutions using dind when you need to build an image from inside a container..

dgb23 5y ago

Two examples to get a taste of the tradeoffs and utility it provides would be postgrest and IHL. I think it’s sexy. But like you I haven’t had the time to really dive into it and understand it. The promise is simplification, both operational and in terms of the runtime.

capableweb 5y ago

> it seems to me like it’s competing with docker and kubernetes and I have never seen a convincing argument about why it would be better. This seems to indicate a huge mismatch between what you think Nix/OS is compared to what it actually is. NixOS is for creating/maintaining systems, Docker is for running applications and Kubernetes is for running applications but across multiple servers, neither of those tools are like the other really.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago
> Docker is for running applications Yes but no. Docker is mainly used for its ability to build and reuse standardised containers. It’s very much a distribution mechanism (I mean that’s why it’s called docker). From other comments I get the feeling that NixOS could be used to build reproducible containers in a way that remind me of building tools like Bazel but it’s not entirely clear to me why you would chose to do that nor if it’s actually a goal of the product.
- easygenes 5y ago
  Docker and Kubernetes are almost strictly a subset of the power within the Nix ecosystem.
- jbboehr 5y ago
  > NixOS could be used to build reproducible containers You absolutely can build docker images using Nix via dockerTools.buildImage [0]. [0]: https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images https://nix.dev/tutorials/building-and-running-docker-images
Azsy 5y ago
The market you compete in is the market your users imagine you offer similar solutions. Not the market of how you describe yourself. Docker's features usually include "its easier to create and maintain a system". That Nix does this different and better doesn't matter when a user is just looking to solve that one problem. At that moment, for that user, Nix is just a fancy config manager with one click deploy features and competing with docker.

Ericson2314 5y ago

The "market" for Nix is honestly OCD people that care about the software production process --- "god willing" our fastidiousness will eventually pay off as everyone else slowly boils in "accidental complexity", and our decisions finally make sense to others. In the meantime, it's hard to convey the benefits. For now, I argue there is surprisingly little business case to care about developer efficiency --- VCs want you to blow cash, and increased developer outsourcing with remote work is covering the stupid complexity costs the cloud imposed. Mainly, businesses are demand constrained. That there is tons of embarrassing supply chain issues rights now is to me in accordance with this. America has gotten really good at advertising and customer acquisition, but we've lost skills at actually doing the basics, as it is really easy to service whatever demand you can scrounge up. So far now, you either really want a clean workbench, even at the cost of dealing with the complexity that cleanup exposes, or you don't. That says whether Nix is or isn't for you.