86 ms·

The follow up MS project Midori has one of my favourite series of blog posts written about it http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://j

by tybit 5y ago

The follow up MS project Midori has one of my favourite series of blog posts written about it http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/ http://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/

pjmlp 5y ago
And unaware to many, did actually power the Asian servers for Bing as production test.
- obdev 5y ago
  Why Midori was discontinued?
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    The usual politics, from .NET vs C++ at Microsoft. Here Joe Duffy mentions towards the end that even with Midori running in front of them, the Windows team was sceptical of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuD7SCqHB7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuD7SCqHB7k Since .NET's introduction, Microsoft seems to lack the same kind of culture that Apple and Google have towards into steering their platforms into safer languages (e.g. how constrained NDK happens to be, or first class bindings to all OS APIs in Swift). It appears that every attempt to do so ends up being sabotaged in some way to assure C++'s reign at Microsoft and Windows subsystems. Note that Windows is the only desktop/mobile OS where the GUI stack is still fully C++ aware, and they even make a point out of it. https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml > WinUI is powered by a highly optimized C++ core that delivers blistering performance, long battery life, and responsive interactivity that professional developers demand. Its lower system utilization allows it to run on a wider range of hardware, ensuring your sophisticated workloads run with ease.
    - tcbawo 5y ago
      Perhaps due to a pervasive desire to maintain backwards compatibility, bugs and all?
      - gedy 5y ago
        My previous company had a C++ portion/team and wow were they defensive about changing anything :-)
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        That doesn't justify why Managed Direct X, XNA, Silverlight (on WP 7), .NET Native got the axe. Even the Longhorn failure, which resulted on the "everything COM", that then evolved into WinRT (basically COM + IInspectable + .NET metadata + sandboxing), could have worked out if everyone actually worked together. I don't believe that if there was actually a willingness from Windows/C++ crowd, they couldn't have helped to push the .NET runtime into improvements similar to .NET Native. Or to put into another way, the efforts done by Google and Apple improving the Objective-C, Swift and ART, respectively. In fact, probably the reasoning behind bringing Midori learnings into .NET Core (thus making C# into D like), has more to do with C++/CLI being Windows only, and the managed languages competition outside Windows than anything else.
        zamalek 5y ago
        > could have worked out if everyone actually worked together Apparently, Sinofsky suffers dreadfully from "not invented here syndrome." He simply does not trust anything that his team has not built, and Midori is the tip of the iceberg. There are a some instances where his attitude worked, but they were far and few between. You'll notice that there is a very distinct "firewall" between core architecture and "other teams" on the projects he managed, even today (e.g. .Net Office extensions are just COM).
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Indeed that is quite clear in between the lines on MSJ, Channel 9, blogs, PDC, BUILD, among others, since Visual Studio.NET came out.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      As far as i know .NET binaries cannot run from a network share which is a big limitation.
      - teh_klev 5y ago
        Not actually correct. You needed to fiddle about with code access security using the caspol tool and then they'd run just fine. .NET 4 disables CAS by default though there can still be a bit of faff to get an exe to launch from a file share, but it is doable. .NET core abandoned CAS (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/core-libraries/5.0/code-access-security-apis-obsolete https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/c...)
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        When there are issues and one owns the runtime, there is a way to fix them, when there's a willingness.
  - JoBrad 5y ago
    Not really a disagreement with pjmlp, but MS has had several internal projects like this, where they create an “ideal state” for some part of their software portfolio, then incorporate learned lessons into their existing software packages. The blog posts linked elsewhere in the discussion threads and the one I’ve included below give examples of how both Singularity and Midori contributed to other projects, including C++, C#, .NET, and Windows. https://www.zdnet.com/article/whatever-happened-to-microsofts-midori-operating-system-project/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/whatever-happened-to-microsoft...
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Well that is just my point of view, following Microsoft ecosystems since MS-DOS 3.3. Everything I state comes from reading between the lines from ways things have been written, presented and so forth. I might be wrong, obviously.
      - JoBrad 5y ago
        Sounds like your read is pretty dead-on. My comment was more of an “and” to your’s.

by tybit 5y ago

pjmlp 5y ago

And unaware to many, did actually power the Asian servers for Bing as production test.

obdev 5y ago
Why Midori was discontinued?
- pjmlp 5y ago
  The usual politics, from .NET vs C++ at Microsoft. Here Joe Duffy mentions towards the end that even with Midori running in front of them, the Windows team was sceptical of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuD7SCqHB7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuD7SCqHB7k Since .NET's introduction, Microsoft seems to lack the same kind of culture that Apple and Google have towards into steering their platforms into safer languages (e.g. how constrained NDK happens to be, or first class bindings to all OS APIs in Swift). It appears that every attempt to do so ends up being sabotaged in some way to assure C++'s reign at Microsoft and Windows subsystems. Note that Windows is the only desktop/mobile OS where the GUI stack is still fully C++ aware, and they even make a point out of it. https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml > WinUI is powered by a highly optimized C++ core that delivers blistering performance, long battery life, and responsive interactivity that professional developers demand. Its lower system utilization allows it to run on a wider range of hardware, ensuring your sophisticated workloads run with ease.
  - tcbawo 5y ago
    Perhaps due to a pervasive desire to maintain backwards compatibility, bugs and all?
    - gedy 5y ago
      My previous company had a C++ portion/team and wow were they defensive about changing anything :-)
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      That doesn't justify why Managed Direct X, XNA, Silverlight (on WP 7), .NET Native got the axe. Even the Longhorn failure, which resulted on the "everything COM", that then evolved into WinRT (basically COM + IInspectable + .NET metadata + sandboxing), could have worked out if everyone actually worked together. I don't believe that if there was actually a willingness from Windows/C++ crowd, they couldn't have helped to push the .NET runtime into improvements similar to .NET Native. Or to put into another way, the efforts done by Google and Apple improving the Objective-C, Swift and ART, respectively. In fact, probably the reasoning behind bringing Midori learnings into .NET Core (thus making C# into D like), has more to do with C++/CLI being Windows only, and the managed languages competition outside Windows than anything else.
      - zamalek 5y ago
        > could have worked out if everyone actually worked together Apparently, Sinofsky suffers dreadfully from "not invented here syndrome." He simply does not trust anything that his team has not built, and Midori is the tip of the iceberg. There are a some instances where his attitude worked, but they were far and few between. You'll notice that there is a very distinct "firewall" between core architecture and "other teams" on the projects he managed, even today (e.g. .Net Office extensions are just COM).
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Indeed that is quite clear in between the lines on MSJ, Channel 9, blogs, PDC, BUILD, among others, since Visual Studio.NET came out.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    As far as i know .NET binaries cannot run from a network share which is a big limitation.
    - teh_klev 5y ago
      Not actually correct. You needed to fiddle about with code access security using the caspol tool and then they'd run just fine. .NET 4 disables CAS by default though there can still be a bit of faff to get an exe to launch from a file share, but it is doable. .NET core abandoned CAS (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/core-libraries/5.0/code-access-security-apis-obsolete https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/compatibility/c...)
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      When there are issues and one owns the runtime, there is a way to fix them, when there's a willingness.
- JoBrad 5y ago
  Not really a disagreement with pjmlp, but MS has had several internal projects like this, where they create an “ideal state” for some part of their software portfolio, then incorporate learned lessons into their existing software packages. The blog posts linked elsewhere in the discussion threads and the one I’ve included below give examples of how both Singularity and Midori contributed to other projects, including C++, C#, .NET, and Windows. https://www.zdnet.com/article/whatever-happened-to-microsofts-midori-operating-system-project/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/whatever-happened-to-microsoft...
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Well that is just my point of view, following Microsoft ecosystems since MS-DOS 3.3. Everything I state comes from reading between the lines from ways things have been written, presented and so forth. I might be wrong, obviously.
    - JoBrad 5y ago
      Sounds like your read is pretty dead-on. My comment was more of an “and” to your’s.