5 ms·

Someone made an interesting point that we got rid of cholera by drinking cleaner water and that we'll get rid of Covid by breathing cleaner air.

by nprz 5y ago

felipellrocha 5y ago
wut?
drzaiusapelord 5y ago
You won't often catch covid from stray particles but from the person breathing next to you, which these filters can't help. This study was in a hospital where everyone is wearing serious PPE, so its a super edge case to get rid of covid in the air because the main use case of catching covid has been handle by plain old PPE. This doesn't have sweeping applicability. It won't stop covid among the general population. Its for maybe hospitals that are on super covid lockdown that want a little more protection for their most vulnerable patients. We get rid of covid through mass vaccination like any other virus. There's no shortcuts for those who refuse masks and vaccines.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  >There's no shortcuts for those who refuse masks and vaccines. Just urns and gravestones.
  - user743 5y ago
    Or an immune system... or therapeutics...
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      No horse parasites, or malaria, or places where the ultraviolet sun don't shine...
- vondur 5y ago
  What if the air is being actively refreshed and filtered. I believe this is what needs to start happening in most indoor environments. This would definitely help with reducing the amount of cases.
- murgindrag 5y ago
  As far as I can tell, COVID has two predominant modes of spread: - Extended time indoors, with high viral loads. It spreads ridiculously well with no protection (even among the vaccinated). - Isolated superspreader events, where one person infects many, even with distant contact. Filters would seem to target the latter more than the former.
- notatoad 5y ago
  >You won't often catch covid from... how do you know? it seems like most cases are attributed to the nebulous "community spread" and nobody is really sure who they're coming from or how we're catching it. maybe we are getting it from the person breathing near us - if masks help, i don't see a reason that improved air filtration wouldn't.
  - drzaiusapelord 5y ago
    Because understanding how viruses spread is a solved art. None of this is "unknown."
    - bmeski 5y ago
      In the same way that people are dumbfounded that natural immunity from having it is superior than the vaccine. It’s as if we all forgot how viruses work.
      - sfkgtbor 5y ago
        In terms of safety, vaccines are much better then getting COVID. One of the big factors of "better protection" of immunity gained after recovering from the virus is survivor bias. In data about mortality after reinfection there are no people who died after getting it for the 1st time. This leaves only ones who had body strong enough to recover. There's no surprise that later that group fares better.
  - asdff 5y ago
    All the data suggest that its not someone breathing on you in passing that's going to result in covid infection, but spending long periods with someone indoors in close proximity. Within a half hour in the massive grocery store? I would be shocked if you caught it. Drinking in someones living room, swapping stories within arms length, swapping spit flecks for 5 hours straight? Definitely going to spread everything you have in such a small enclosed space where the viral load is able to reach a much higher concentration over a long period of time.
Pxtl 5y ago
"air is the new poop" is what public health dr David Fisman says... Which is hyperbolic but succinct.
- loonster 5y ago
  After you read about the Amoy Gardens and SARS1, you will no longer think of it as hyperbolic. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16696450/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16696450/ >Abstract >Recent investigations into the March 2003 outbreak of SARS in Hong Kong have concluded that environmental factors played an important role in the transmission of the disease. These studies have focused on a particular outbreak event, the rapid spread of SARS throughout Amoy Gardens, a large, private apartment complex. They have demonstrated that, unlike a typical viral outbreak that is spread through person-to-person contact, the SARS virus in this case was spread primarily through the air. High concentrations of viral aerosols in building plumbing were drawn into apartment bathrooms through floor drains. The initial exposures occurred in these bathrooms. The virus-laden air was then transported by prevailing winds to adjacent buildings at Amoy Gardens, where additional exposures occurred. This article reviews the results of the investigations and provides recommendations for maintenance and other measures that building owners can take to help prevent environmental transmission of SARS and other flulike viruses in their buildings.
  - Pxtl 5y ago
    I assume those floor drains lacked a functional p-trap because I've read with covid that disease would spread through drains without a proper p-trap, but otherwise the p-trap prevents drains like toilets and sinks from stinking and allowing contaminated air through. P-traps can dry out though, but they stink if they do. Maybe that's what happened there? Edit: yes, that's the theory - floor drains with dry u-bends allowed the poop air out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539564/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539564/
    - loonster 5y ago
      It also had a cracked vent pipe. Sickness was correlated with floor level (the higher the floor level, the higher the infection rate). The important takeaway is SARS 1 had significant fecal-oral transmission and not just respiratory. And yet I'm supposed to believe that SARS 2 is respiratory only despite the fact that the government has detected SARS 2 in sewer systems, one of the early Covid symptoms is diarrhea, and SARS 1 had significant number of infections by fecal matter.
staplers 5y ago
Fish tank filters are practically required for fish. I don't see why home air filters (HEPA) aren't more common especially in extreme environments with window opening not realistic.
- SteveNuts 5y ago
  Fish tank filters are vital to the nitrogen cycle but your point still stands.
babyshake 5y ago
Maybe this is pure science fiction but it would be amazing to see Covid alarms, if the virus was detected in the air.
- Jabbles 5y ago
  Detection is much more complex than simply filtering most particles of that size.
refurb 5y ago
Considering you’re exposed to water during limited times (and need to actually ingest it) but exposed to air 24/7 (or else you die) that doesn’t seem like a reasonable comparison. If someone standing in front of you sneezes, a filter in the HVAC isn’t doing anything to stop you from getting covid. I mean, isn’t airborne transmission still uncertain for Covid?
- MarcoZavala 5y ago
- Jabbles 5y ago
  We don't have to eliminate all transmission to stop Covid, we just need to bring the R value below 1 and keep it there. I don't think that direct transmission via sneezing is a significant cause of spread, but sneezed particles could remain in the air for a long time, long enough for a filter to make a difference. I don't think there's any uncertainty left in airborne transmission: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/04/who-coronavirus-airborne/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/04/who-corona...
bufferoverflow 5y ago
No, we will not. The virus spreads when people are close and breathe. And then there are animal reservoirs. This virus isn't going anywhere until we develop an actual vaccine that stops it. I, personally, bet on CRISPR-based or similar solution. Filtering air will slow it down, but it cannot stop it.

Someone made an interesting point that we got rid of cholera by drinking cleaner water and that we'll get rid of Covid by breathing cleaner air.

by nprz 5y ago

Someone made an interesting point that we got rid of cholera by drinking cleaner water and that we'll get rid of Covid by breathing cleaner air.

felipellrocha 5y ago

wut?

drzaiusapelord 5y ago

You won't often catch covid from stray particles but from the person breathing next to you, which these filters can't help. This study was in a hospital where everyone is wearing serious PPE, so its a super edge case to get rid of covid in the air because the main use case of catching covid has been handle by plain old PPE. This doesn't have sweeping applicability. It won't stop covid among the general population. Its for maybe hospitals that are on super covid lockdown that want a little more protection for their most vulnerable patients. We get rid of covid through mass vaccination like any other virus. There's no shortcuts for those who refuse masks and vaccines.

DonHopkins 5y ago
>There's no shortcuts for those who refuse masks and vaccines. Just urns and gravestones.
- user743 5y ago
  Or an immune system... or therapeutics...
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    No horse parasites, or malaria, or places where the ultraviolet sun don't shine...
vondur 5y ago
What if the air is being actively refreshed and filtered. I believe this is what needs to start happening in most indoor environments. This would definitely help with reducing the amount of cases.
murgindrag 5y ago
As far as I can tell, COVID has two predominant modes of spread: - Extended time indoors, with high viral loads. It spreads ridiculously well with no protection (even among the vaccinated). - Isolated superspreader events, where one person infects many, even with distant contact. Filters would seem to target the latter more than the former.
notatoad 5y ago
>You won't often catch covid from... how do you know? it seems like most cases are attributed to the nebulous "community spread" and nobody is really sure who they're coming from or how we're catching it. maybe we are getting it from the person breathing near us - if masks help, i don't see a reason that improved air filtration wouldn't.
- drzaiusapelord 5y ago
  Because understanding how viruses spread is a solved art. None of this is "unknown."
  - bmeski 5y ago
    In the same way that people are dumbfounded that natural immunity from having it is superior than the vaccine. It’s as if we all forgot how viruses work.
    - sfkgtbor 5y ago
      In terms of safety, vaccines are much better then getting COVID. One of the big factors of "better protection" of immunity gained after recovering from the virus is survivor bias. In data about mortality after reinfection there are no people who died after getting it for the 1st time. This leaves only ones who had body strong enough to recover. There's no surprise that later that group fares better.
- asdff 5y ago
  All the data suggest that its not someone breathing on you in passing that's going to result in covid infection, but spending long periods with someone indoors in close proximity. Within a half hour in the massive grocery store? I would be shocked if you caught it. Drinking in someones living room, swapping stories within arms length, swapping spit flecks for 5 hours straight? Definitely going to spread everything you have in such a small enclosed space where the viral load is able to reach a much higher concentration over a long period of time.

Pxtl 5y ago

"air is the new poop" is what public health dr David Fisman says... Which is hyperbolic but succinct.

loonster 5y ago
After you read about the Amoy Gardens and SARS1, you will no longer think of it as hyperbolic. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16696450/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16696450/ >Abstract >Recent investigations into the March 2003 outbreak of SARS in Hong Kong have concluded that environmental factors played an important role in the transmission of the disease. These studies have focused on a particular outbreak event, the rapid spread of SARS throughout Amoy Gardens, a large, private apartment complex. They have demonstrated that, unlike a typical viral outbreak that is spread through person-to-person contact, the SARS virus in this case was spread primarily through the air. High concentrations of viral aerosols in building plumbing were drawn into apartment bathrooms through floor drains. The initial exposures occurred in these bathrooms. The virus-laden air was then transported by prevailing winds to adjacent buildings at Amoy Gardens, where additional exposures occurred. This article reviews the results of the investigations and provides recommendations for maintenance and other measures that building owners can take to help prevent environmental transmission of SARS and other flulike viruses in their buildings.
- Pxtl 5y ago
  I assume those floor drains lacked a functional p-trap because I've read with covid that disease would spread through drains without a proper p-trap, but otherwise the p-trap prevents drains like toilets and sinks from stinking and allowing contaminated air through. P-traps can dry out though, but they stink if they do. Maybe that's what happened there? Edit: yes, that's the theory - floor drains with dry u-bends allowed the poop air out. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539564/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539564/
  - loonster 5y ago
    It also had a cracked vent pipe. Sickness was correlated with floor level (the higher the floor level, the higher the infection rate). The important takeaway is SARS 1 had significant fecal-oral transmission and not just respiratory. And yet I'm supposed to believe that SARS 2 is respiratory only despite the fact that the government has detected SARS 2 in sewer systems, one of the early Covid symptoms is diarrhea, and SARS 1 had significant number of infections by fecal matter.

staplers 5y ago

Fish tank filters are practically required for fish. I don't see why home air filters (HEPA) aren't more common especially in extreme environments with window opening not realistic.

SteveNuts 5y ago
Fish tank filters are vital to the nitrogen cycle but your point still stands.

babyshake 5y ago

Maybe this is pure science fiction but it would be amazing to see Covid alarms, if the virus was detected in the air.

Jabbles 5y ago
Detection is much more complex than simply filtering most particles of that size.

refurb 5y ago

Considering you’re exposed to water during limited times (and need to actually ingest it) but exposed to air 24/7 (or else you die) that doesn’t seem like a reasonable comparison. If someone standing in front of you sneezes, a filter in the HVAC isn’t doing anything to stop you from getting covid. I mean, isn’t airborne transmission still uncertain for Covid?

MarcoZavala 5y ago
Jabbles 5y ago
We don't have to eliminate all transmission to stop Covid, we just need to bring the R value below 1 and keep it there. I don't think that direct transmission via sneezing is a significant cause of spread, but sneezed particles could remain in the air for a long time, long enough for a filter to make a difference. I don't think there's any uncertainty left in airborne transmission: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/04/who-coronavirus-airborne/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/04/who-corona...

bufferoverflow 5y ago

No, we will not. The virus spreads when people are close and breathe. And then there are animal reservoirs. This virus isn't going anywhere until we develop an actual vaccine that stops it. I, personally, bet on CRISPR-based or similar solution. Filtering air will slow it down, but it cannot stop it.