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The US' priority in situations like this is overwhelmingly to provide evidence that the threats it makes with criminal laws and defense of national secrets are

by advael 5y ago

The US' priority in situations like this is overwhelmingly to provide evidence that the threats it makes with criminal laws and defense of national secrets are credible. It has time and time again chosen to die on hills like this. The ethics and optics of it don't seem to factor much into the decisionmaking

lazide 5y ago
When power reaches a certain level, it isn’t about being seen doing the right or ethical thing. It is about demonstrating that it can and will be used against whoever they want with impunity, even if it’s clearly wrong, and they will get away with it. It stops a lot of people from even attempting to challenge them, and just do what they want without question, which has many advantages. In some situations, it’s even legitimately necessary. It’s also prone to abuse of course. In order to keep this kind of power, it’s necessary to demonstrate from time to time this power exists and will be used, since if people start not being afraid of having their lives ruined if they challenge said power legitimately, they also stop going along with demands from those in power unquestioningly. And a lot of the ability to destroy someone for whatever reason (including legitimate ones) depends on that unquestioning compliance. You can think of it as a form of ‘bend the knee’.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  I absolutely agree that's what's motivating the US, but it's interesting the future they're shepherding society towards via their encouragements and punishments: - Assange: whistleblowers, journalists that embarrass the government will be pursued to the ends of the earth - Snowden: whistleblowers will not be forgiven and will be abandoned without a home country - Sacklers: will be protected from prosecution beyond a large fine, albeit smaller than the profits made from the activity that brought the fine - Wall Street: government funding provided as a bailout after failure due to poor business decisions and no one held accountable or prosecuted. Absolutely demonstrated where 'the power' exists, and there's no overlap with 'for the people'.
  - lazide 5y ago
    If you go back into the history books, I think it’s wishful thinking that it was ever any other way - plus or minus some ebbs or flows over the years. COINTELPRO and J. Edgar Hoovers blackmailing of government officials and other shenanigans being a pretty solid recent examples that just so happened to be exposed, but especially when you look at how few media outlets were willing to publish the COINTELPRO documents along with how many of the packets just ‘disappeared’ in the mail, it’s clear we just got lucky to know about these. For every one of them that gets out, I’m sure there are 3-5 or more that get caught and stopped.
- mountainboy 5y ago
  > it’s even legitimately necessary I do not believe that your morals and mine are compatible.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Nothing to do with my morals, it’s good old realpolitik/fate of nations type stuff. I stay out of these type of games. If you think anyone who IS into those games cares much about morals or ethics instead of ‘national interests’, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand it or why it is the way it is.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  You are describing how thing are but not how things should be. This kind of power plays are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and, more importantly, with the greater good of humanity. If we look at the last 2000 years of history this forms of authoritarianism have slowly become more and more unacceptable.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Yup! And I attribute that in large part to more wealth distributed more widely, which allows more people to have the time and ability to do something to protect their rights. It takes education, time, courage, and treasure to fight these kinds of things. The more people stand up and say ‘No’ - and show it matters - the better for everyone. It is also a constant ongoing fight that is never truly won.

by advael 5y ago

lazide 5y ago

When power reaches a certain level, it isn’t about being seen doing the right or ethical thing. It is about demonstrating that it can and will be used against whoever they want with impunity, even if it’s clearly wrong, and they will get away with it. It stops a lot of people from even attempting to challenge them, and just do what they want without question, which has many advantages. In some situations, it’s even legitimately necessary. It’s also prone to abuse of course. In order to keep this kind of power, it’s necessary to demonstrate from time to time this power exists and will be used, since if people start not being afraid of having their lives ruined if they challenge said power legitimately, they also stop going along with demands from those in power unquestioningly. And a lot of the ability to destroy someone for whatever reason (including legitimate ones) depends on that unquestioning compliance. You can think of it as a form of ‘bend the knee’.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
I absolutely agree that's what's motivating the US, but it's interesting the future they're shepherding society towards via their encouragements and punishments: - Assange: whistleblowers, journalists that embarrass the government will be pursued to the ends of the earth - Snowden: whistleblowers will not be forgiven and will be abandoned without a home country - Sacklers: will be protected from prosecution beyond a large fine, albeit smaller than the profits made from the activity that brought the fine - Wall Street: government funding provided as a bailout after failure due to poor business decisions and no one held accountable or prosecuted. Absolutely demonstrated where 'the power' exists, and there's no overlap with 'for the people'.
- lazide 5y ago
  If you go back into the history books, I think it’s wishful thinking that it was ever any other way - plus or minus some ebbs or flows over the years. COINTELPRO and J. Edgar Hoovers blackmailing of government officials and other shenanigans being a pretty solid recent examples that just so happened to be exposed, but especially when you look at how few media outlets were willing to publish the COINTELPRO documents along with how many of the packets just ‘disappeared’ in the mail, it’s clear we just got lucky to know about these. For every one of them that gets out, I’m sure there are 3-5 or more that get caught and stopped.
mountainboy 5y ago
> it’s even legitimately necessary I do not believe that your morals and mine are compatible.
- lazide 5y ago
  Nothing to do with my morals, it’s good old realpolitik/fate of nations type stuff. I stay out of these type of games. If you think anyone who IS into those games cares much about morals or ethics instead of ‘national interests’, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand it or why it is the way it is.
goodpoint 5y ago
You are describing how thing are but not how things should be. This kind of power plays are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and, more importantly, with the greater good of humanity. If we look at the last 2000 years of history this forms of authoritarianism have slowly become more and more unacceptable.
- lazide 5y ago
  Yup! And I attribute that in large part to more wealth distributed more widely, which allows more people to have the time and ability to do something to protect their rights. It takes education, time, courage, and treasure to fight these kinds of things. The more people stand up and say ‘No’ - and show it matters - the better for everyone. It is also a constant ongoing fight that is never truly won.