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Too bad the interview process is such a nightmare. It's literally given me PTSD at this point. I'd love to try out a new opportunity, but the thought of that ni

Too bad the interview process is such a nightmare. It's literally given me PTSD at this point. I'd love to try out a new opportunity, but the thought of that nightmare process leaves me grateful and content where I'm at. I've also noticed a lot of rising credentialism in the industry. BS CS is now listed on practically every job posting. With the massive rise in CS grads in the US I truly don't know how a self taught dev like myself could even get a shot at a junior role anymore.

mathattack 5y ago
It’s getting tougher for the first job but not for the 2nd, where word of mouth (a strong referral from a colleague who worked with you) carries much more weight than resume. My understanding is the Googles of the world are de-emphasizing degrees but they can’t hire everyone. And you have to pass their technical interview.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >It’s getting tougher for the first job but not for the 2nd, where word of mouth (a strong referral from a colleague who worked with you) carries much more weight than resume. I've gotten plenty of employee referrals in the past because people I've worked with know I'm a solid developer, but honestly I just politely refuse them at this point. Every single time it happens, the company just drops you straight into the standard interview pipeline with zero benefit other than perhaps skipping a recruiter phone call. And when I'm inevitably not able to solve some random whiteboard problem or whatever, and I get rejected, it makes the friendship weird from then on.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    There are basically two kinds of referrals: The first is employees put the names of people they know and have maybe worked with a bit into the system attached to an open position with the hope, in part, that they'll get a referral bonus down the road. That's going to basically go through the regular process. When I've gotten a job directly or indirectly through someone I knew, it's been through people I've worked with in the past and were usually in a position to at least influence the hiring. I'm not sure any of those jobs (which I've just had a few of) was even against a posted position.
  - mathattack 5y ago
    Employee referrals do you no good if you don’t want the job. They are massively useful if you see a job you want and can’t figure out how to convince the Applicant Tracking System or non-technical HR rep that you’re worthy despite a non-standard background. Not needed if you have no trouble getting interviews, and it doesn’t replace having to do the interviews.
flyinglizard 5y ago
Start doing some freelancing like Upwork and build a resume. Even though it’s a global platform you’re still going to have an advantage as a US based dev if you price yourself in the Eastern European bracket ($40-ish per hour). After a few successful jobs you’d have good credentials to either charge more or just migrate to a full time work.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  As a hiring manager, I can’t imagine the time spent doing Upwork would be directly valuable enough in a portfolio or credentials sense when looking for full-time work. (It might give you practice and focused effort and so make you indirectly valuable, but if your prime worry is credentialism, I don’t think it helps.)
  - flyinglizard 5y ago
    Not sure why. Having completed projects successfully with the right technologies and receiving positive reviews should, in theory, be a stronger indicator for capability than just having had a fulltime position somewhere or passing an arbitrary technical interview. But then I always tended to hire people based on attitude rather than specific credentials or experience. Still: a. Upwork could lead to full time opportunities b. You still get money while working, and $40/h gathering experience sure as hell beats a third of that working in retail.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      It costs almost nothing to get reviews planted in upwork. Have a confederate (or your alter-ego) post a project, pay you, and leave a glowing review. You’re out only upwork’s commission.
echelon 5y ago
Almost every position I've ever seen says "BS or equivalent experience". I never look at resumes when conducting interviews unless I'm asking the candidate about past projects. It makes you form biases. I don't look at the school at all. As a data point, some of my coworkers went to MIT, CMU, and Stanford. Many others didn't go to college at all or graduated with entirely orthogonal degrees. I'm at a fintech with $500k total comp packages. Degrees are bullshit unless you're doing research, using an expensive lab, or need mentorship. You can learn data structures, algorithm analysis, and distributed computing on your own from home using free resources. That's more than enough to land a good job. Any interview pipeline asking you dynamic programming problems has a broken process.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Why on earth wouldn't you look at a resume at all? Or do you mean that you skip the degree part of it?
- dahart 5y ago
  > You can learn […] on your own from home Sure, yes you can. Statistically speaking how many people actually do this for several years while being focused on other things? I know there are some, absolutely, but I’ve met lots of people with and without CS degrees. It’s pretty clear to me that on average, the ones with degrees are better prepared for programming jobs than the ones who dabbled. I would say it’s also clear that a small minority of self-taught people are even better prepared for jobs than the majority of degree holders. And the best programmers I’ve ever known do a metric ton of both academics and self-schooling, because they devour it in all possible ways. > Any interview pipeline asking you dynamic programming problems has a broken process. So the question is: what is the right process? Are you saying the interview should not ask any algorithm questions?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > Degrees are bullshit The trouble with being self-taught is few manage to teach themselves calculus let alone advanced calculus, and one can have yawning gaps in knowledge and be completely unaware of their existence.
asdev 5y ago
Unfortunately the answer is get on Leetcode and grind
- 0des 5y ago
  It's really not.
WalterBright 5y ago
> how a self taught dev like myself could even get a shot at a junior role anymore. Contribute meaningfully to open source. Many contributors to the D community have leveraged that into well paying jobs, without the usual academic credentials.
tayo42 5y ago
i can relate to this. My last job search had me considering a new career, it was so demoralizing. I just couldn't get anything. I can go on an on about how its such a a horrible experience. Even the things just out of my control. Then the new job it self can be hellish experience. After some real terrible teams and companies why even risk it if your not totally miserable. There are some sociopaths and truly terrible people out there and just completely incompetent.

mathattack 5y ago

It’s getting tougher for the first job but not for the 2nd, where word of mouth (a strong referral from a colleague who worked with you) carries much more weight than resume. My understanding is the Googles of the world are de-emphasizing degrees but they can’t hire everyone. And you have to pass their technical interview.

ramesh31 5y ago
>It’s getting tougher for the first job but not for the 2nd, where word of mouth (a strong referral from a colleague who worked with you) carries much more weight than resume. I've gotten plenty of employee referrals in the past because people I've worked with know I'm a solid developer, but honestly I just politely refuse them at this point. Every single time it happens, the company just drops you straight into the standard interview pipeline with zero benefit other than perhaps skipping a recruiter phone call. And when I'm inevitably not able to solve some random whiteboard problem or whatever, and I get rejected, it makes the friendship weird from then on.
- ghaff 5y ago
  There are basically two kinds of referrals: The first is employees put the names of people they know and have maybe worked with a bit into the system attached to an open position with the hope, in part, that they'll get a referral bonus down the road. That's going to basically go through the regular process. When I've gotten a job directly or indirectly through someone I knew, it's been through people I've worked with in the past and were usually in a position to at least influence the hiring. I'm not sure any of those jobs (which I've just had a few of) was even against a posted position.
- mathattack 5y ago
  Employee referrals do you no good if you don’t want the job. They are massively useful if you see a job you want and can’t figure out how to convince the Applicant Tracking System or non-technical HR rep that you’re worthy despite a non-standard background. Not needed if you have no trouble getting interviews, and it doesn’t replace having to do the interviews.

flyinglizard 5y ago

Start doing some freelancing like Upwork and build a resume. Even though it’s a global platform you’re still going to have an advantage as a US based dev if you price yourself in the Eastern European bracket ($40-ish per hour). After a few successful jobs you’d have good credentials to either charge more or just migrate to a full time work.

sokoloff 5y ago
As a hiring manager, I can’t imagine the time spent doing Upwork would be directly valuable enough in a portfolio or credentials sense when looking for full-time work. (It might give you practice and focused effort and so make you indirectly valuable, but if your prime worry is credentialism, I don’t think it helps.)
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  Not sure why. Having completed projects successfully with the right technologies and receiving positive reviews should, in theory, be a stronger indicator for capability than just having had a fulltime position somewhere or passing an arbitrary technical interview. But then I always tended to hire people based on attitude rather than specific credentials or experience. Still: a. Upwork could lead to full time opportunities b. You still get money while working, and $40/h gathering experience sure as hell beats a third of that working in retail.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    It costs almost nothing to get reviews planted in upwork. Have a confederate (or your alter-ego) post a project, pay you, and leave a glowing review. You’re out only upwork’s commission.

echelon 5y ago

Almost every position I've ever seen says "BS or equivalent experience". I never look at resumes when conducting interviews unless I'm asking the candidate about past projects. It makes you form biases. I don't look at the school at all. As a data point, some of my coworkers went to MIT, CMU, and Stanford. Many others didn't go to college at all or graduated with entirely orthogonal degrees. I'm at a fintech with $500k total comp packages. Degrees are bullshit unless you're doing research, using an expensive lab, or need mentorship. You can learn data structures, algorithm analysis, and distributed computing on your own from home using free resources. That's more than enough to land a good job. Any interview pipeline asking you dynamic programming problems has a broken process.

HWR_14 5y ago
Why on earth wouldn't you look at a resume at all? Or do you mean that you skip the degree part of it?
dahart 5y ago
> You can learn […] on your own from home Sure, yes you can. Statistically speaking how many people actually do this for several years while being focused on other things? I know there are some, absolutely, but I’ve met lots of people with and without CS degrees. It’s pretty clear to me that on average, the ones with degrees are better prepared for programming jobs than the ones who dabbled. I would say it’s also clear that a small minority of self-taught people are even better prepared for jobs than the majority of degree holders. And the best programmers I’ve ever known do a metric ton of both academics and self-schooling, because they devour it in all possible ways. > Any interview pipeline asking you dynamic programming problems has a broken process. So the question is: what is the right process? Are you saying the interview should not ask any algorithm questions?
WalterBright 5y ago
> Degrees are bullshit The trouble with being self-taught is few manage to teach themselves calculus let alone advanced calculus, and one can have yawning gaps in knowledge and be completely unaware of their existence.

asdev 5y ago

Unfortunately the answer is get on Leetcode and grind

0des 5y ago
It's really not.

WalterBright 5y ago

> how a self taught dev like myself could even get a shot at a junior role anymore. Contribute meaningfully to open source. Many contributors to the D community have leveraged that into well paying jobs, without the usual academic credentials.

tayo42 5y ago

i can relate to this. My last job search had me considering a new career, it was so demoralizing. I just couldn't get anything. I can go on an on about how its such a a horrible experience. Even the things just out of my control. Then the new job it self can be hellish experience. After some real terrible teams and companies why even risk it if your not totally miserable. There are some sociopaths and truly terrible people out there and just completely incompetent.