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While I agree that this has been overly politicized, I think you're attempting a moral equivalence here that is wrong. One side is pushing 100% vaccination, wh

by Pxtl 5y ago

While I agree that this has been overly politicized, I think you're attempting a moral equivalence here that is wrong. One side is pushing 100% vaccination, which scientists say is the best way to solve this. The other side is opposing even the most reasonable public health mandates like masking, pushing proven snake-oil like hydroxychloriquine.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> other side is opposing even the most reasonable public health mandates like masking, pushing proven snake-oil like hydroxychloriquine They is grey area in between these extremes. Religious and medical exemptions to vaccination are widely supported. And most anti-vaxxers aren’t on the hydroxychloroquine train. Within the antivaxxer community, a subset are fine with immunity documentation provided it reflect their natural immunity.
- Pxtl 5y ago
  Religious exemption is not widely supported. Many locations do not have religious exemption. And supporting documentation of covid antibodies is creating a massive moral hazard for anti-vaxxers. Delta is infectious enough that we must assume that every unvaccinated person will get it. Telling people that they will be able to rejoin society after they're vaccinated or they get covid will result in people avoiding vaccination, which means saturating ICUs as those people get covid by happenstance or by deliberate action. There are people awaiting critical surgeries who cannot get it because of the lack of ICU space. Triage is a crisis right now in many infected regions Remember, if R is greater than one, and you can expect to get covid as an unvaccinated person, then that means that by staying unvaccinated you are de facto planning on giving somebody covid.
wizard-beta 5y ago
No. There's a third side pushing for the Scandinavian solution. Pro-vaccine, but anti-mandate. A little while ago, everyone wanted to be like Norway or Denmark or Sweden -- now they pretend these countries don't exist. Edit: of course I got shadowbanned from Hacker News for opposing the surveillance state. Curse you. Edit 2: someone below says "The Scandinavian countries all have vaccine cards, however, and permit people to discriminate based on whether one has those." Private venues setting access rules is incomparable to a surveillance state mandating rules for every person. "The U.S. won’t jail you if you refuse the vaccine. But you have to stay home. This is functionally identical to the Scandinavian solution, minus public buildings." I live in Denmark (mods, who are obviously watching me, can verify from my IP) and this is a lie. In Copenhagen today, you can go to stores, malls, museums, anywhere basically without showing a pas. Why don't you shadowban this person for "misinformation" since he is lying?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  The Scandinavian countries all have vaccine cards, however, and permit people to discriminate based on whether one has those. The U.S. won’t jail you if you refuse the vaccine. But you have to stay home. This is functionally identical to the Scandinavian solution, minus public buildings and minus a federal vaccine certificate.
  - adolph 5y ago
    Are you saying US and Scandinavia are the same but different? The US won’t jail you unless you disobey?
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > US won’t jail you unless you disobey? They’re the same as in nobody is forced to get the vaccine. Nobody will be threatened with state violence for not getting the shot. They’re just barred from a lot of facilities for the choice they made. We do similarly for children whose parents refuse to give them measles shots. Enforcement, naturally, varies. In Manhattan, I’m constantly asked for card and ID. In Long Island, it never happened.
      - adolph 5y ago
        So you are walking down the street and the cops say “papers please” and you whip them out with the pride of someone protecting the homeland, because you have permission to walk around?
  - wizard-beta 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - tzs 5y ago
      When comparing Denmark to the US you should really be comparing the Denmark of a few months ago to the present US, because Denmark is way ahead of the US on vaccinations and on taking non-vaccine anti-COVID measures. Due to Denmark's high vaccination rate and widespread following of anti-COVID measures their delta surge in cases was in the bottom half for Europe (and peaked about 60% below the US delta surge), and their delta death surge was almost undetectable when graphed on the same scale as the rest of Europe (their peak was around 8% of the US peak). Denmark seems to have made it to the stage where COVID is now just another circulating cold virus (joining the previous four coronaviruses that have become endemic in humans and are responsible for about 20% of colds). About a month ago they ended all COVID restrictions. That's why no one has cared about your vaccination status recently.

by Pxtl 5y ago

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> other side is opposing even the most reasonable public health mandates like masking, pushing proven snake-oil like hydroxychloriquine They is grey area in between these extremes. Religious and medical exemptions to vaccination are widely supported. And most anti-vaxxers aren’t on the hydroxychloroquine train. Within the antivaxxer community, a subset are fine with immunity documentation provided it reflect their natural immunity.

Pxtl 5y ago
Religious exemption is not widely supported. Many locations do not have religious exemption. And supporting documentation of covid antibodies is creating a massive moral hazard for anti-vaxxers. Delta is infectious enough that we must assume that every unvaccinated person will get it. Telling people that they will be able to rejoin society after they're vaccinated or they get covid will result in people avoiding vaccination, which means saturating ICUs as those people get covid by happenstance or by deliberate action. There are people awaiting critical surgeries who cannot get it because of the lack of ICU space. Triage is a crisis right now in many infected regions Remember, if R is greater than one, and you can expect to get covid as an unvaccinated person, then that means that by staying unvaccinated you are de facto planning on giving somebody covid.

wizard-beta 5y ago

No. There's a third side pushing for the Scandinavian solution. Pro-vaccine, but anti-mandate. A little while ago, everyone wanted to be like Norway or Denmark or Sweden -- now they pretend these countries don't exist. Edit: of course I got shadowbanned from Hacker News for opposing the surveillance state. Curse you. Edit 2: someone below says "The Scandinavian countries all have vaccine cards, however, and permit people to discriminate based on whether one has those." Private venues setting access rules is incomparable to a surveillance state mandating rules for every person. "The U.S. won’t jail you if you refuse the vaccine. But you have to stay home. This is functionally identical to the Scandinavian solution, minus public buildings." I live in Denmark (mods, who are obviously watching me, can verify from my IP) and this is a lie. In Copenhagen today, you can go to stores, malls, museums, anywhere basically without showing a pas. Why don't you shadowban this person for "misinformation" since he is lying?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
The Scandinavian countries all have vaccine cards, however, and permit people to discriminate based on whether one has those. The U.S. won’t jail you if you refuse the vaccine. But you have to stay home. This is functionally identical to the Scandinavian solution, minus public buildings and minus a federal vaccine certificate.
- adolph 5y ago
  Are you saying US and Scandinavia are the same but different? The US won’t jail you unless you disobey?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > US won’t jail you unless you disobey? They’re the same as in nobody is forced to get the vaccine. Nobody will be threatened with state violence for not getting the shot. They’re just barred from a lot of facilities for the choice they made. We do similarly for children whose parents refuse to give them measles shots. Enforcement, naturally, varies. In Manhattan, I’m constantly asked for card and ID. In Long Island, it never happened.
    - adolph 5y ago
      So you are walking down the street and the cops say “papers please” and you whip them out with the pride of someone protecting the homeland, because you have permission to walk around?
- wizard-beta 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - tzs 5y ago
    When comparing Denmark to the US you should really be comparing the Denmark of a few months ago to the present US, because Denmark is way ahead of the US on vaccinations and on taking non-vaccine anti-COVID measures. Due to Denmark's high vaccination rate and widespread following of anti-COVID measures their delta surge in cases was in the bottom half for Europe (and peaked about 60% below the US delta surge), and their delta death surge was almost undetectable when graphed on the same scale as the rest of Europe (their peak was around 8% of the US peak). Denmark seems to have made it to the stage where COVID is now just another circulating cold virus (joining the previous four coronaviruses that have become endemic in humans and are responsible for about 20% of colds). About a month ago they ended all COVID restrictions. That's why no one has cared about your vaccination status recently.