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Hydrogen used for energy storage on the electric grid is mentioned in the article, but I’m fairly skeptical of this becoming economically viable. Hydrogen stora

Hydrogen used for energy storage on the electric grid is mentioned in the article, but I’m fairly skeptical of this becoming economically viable. Hydrogen storage costs and losses over time are currently very similar to those in battery energy storage. But batteries are dropping in price very quickly and the component technologies for hydrogen storage (electrolysis, containment, turbines/fuel cells) are dropping much more slowly. So I suspect batteries will win this market and not hydrogen. The place where hydrogen might be helpful on the grid is injecting hydrogen into the natural gas pipeline and generation systems. That way the generation and storage (line packing, tanks) come from existing infrastructure. However there are limits on how much can be added (5% of the mix usually), some unanswered questions about what it will do to the equipment, and the likelihood that this infrastructure will be shut down in the late stages of decarbonization.

twic 5y ago
> However there are limits on how much can be added (5% of the mix usually) I think exploitation of this avenue very much depends on increasing or removing that limit, for example: https://hydeploy.co.uk/about/news/hydeploy-and-the-road-to-100-hydrogen/ https://hydeploy.co.uk/about/news/hydeploy-and-the-road-to-1... https://www.theengineer.co.uk/hydeploy-keele-hydrogen-co2/ https://www.theengineer.co.uk/hydeploy-keele-hydrogen-co2/ There's a fun fact in there, although specific to the UK (possibly the whole EU): > Furthermore, any appliance produced after 1993 which is required to conform to the gas appliances directive has already been tested on 23% Hydrogen
- maliker 5y ago
  I agree adapting the natural gas infrastructure to hydrogen could have big benefits. There might also be a place for ammonia storage/transport here. It's a denser fuel, which gives it some transportation applications (creating a bigger market), and it's easier to store.
nichyoung 5y ago
It doesn’t seem very likely that hydrogen can compete against batteries for short duration storage. But storing electricity for weeks or months (to meet unusual peaks in demand or troughs in supply) is a very different market. Today, natural gas (or where there isn’t a gas grid, oil) peaking plant wins in this market, but that isn’t an option when people plan for a truly zero carbon grid. All the models I can remember seeing for that situation need hydrogen storage or carbon capture - and carbon capture looks likely to be even more expensive than hydrogen. If renewables and electrolysis get cheap enough, hydrogen might even beat oil and gas here on cost.
- maliker 5y ago
  I think batteries will win in long duration storage over hydrogen as well. Batteries have a self-discharge rate, but geological hydrogen storage or cryogenic/pressurized tank storage also has a loss rate, and unpressurized tanks are very expensive. Last time I checked in the literature these loss rates were very similar to battery self-discharge rates. Of course these numbers are tricky to estimate exactly, so I'm open to the idea that a low loss hydrogen storage method might be out there. And of course the prices in these areas are changing quickly, so sources from 10+ years ago don't give a good picture of where we are now or will be in the future.
  - nichyoung 5y ago
    Future costs are never certain. And it may depend where in the world you are. I’m pretty sure salt caverns full of hydrogen are a lot cheaper than most people expect batteries to get for storing (transmission grid scale) energy for a month or more. And I think that’s mostly because lithium, plentiful as it is, is unlikely to ever be as cheap as water. But admittedly not everywhere has the geology for the storing the hydrogen really cheaply. And, of course, in many ways an electrolysis to hydrogen storage to fuel cell system is just a type of (flow) battery. So in some ways this is a question of what type of battery system will win (as are discussions of hydrogen vehicles really, though I’d personally see those as staying pretty niche). Edit: typo further to future.

twic 5y ago

> However there are limits on how much can be added (5% of the mix usually) I think exploitation of this avenue very much depends on increasing or removing that limit, for example: https://hydeploy.co.uk/about/news/hydeploy-and-the-road-to-100-hydrogen/ https://hydeploy.co.uk/about/news/hydeploy-and-the-road-to-1... https://www.theengineer.co.uk/hydeploy-keele-hydrogen-co2/ https://www.theengineer.co.uk/hydeploy-keele-hydrogen-co2/ There's a fun fact in there, although specific to the UK (possibly the whole EU): > Furthermore, any appliance produced after 1993 which is required to conform to the gas appliances directive has already been tested on 23% Hydrogen

maliker 5y ago
I agree adapting the natural gas infrastructure to hydrogen could have big benefits. There might also be a place for ammonia storage/transport here. It's a denser fuel, which gives it some transportation applications (creating a bigger market), and it's easier to store.

nichyoung 5y ago

It doesn’t seem very likely that hydrogen can compete against batteries for short duration storage. But storing electricity for weeks or months (to meet unusual peaks in demand or troughs in supply) is a very different market. Today, natural gas (or where there isn’t a gas grid, oil) peaking plant wins in this market, but that isn’t an option when people plan for a truly zero carbon grid. All the models I can remember seeing for that situation need hydrogen storage or carbon capture - and carbon capture looks likely to be even more expensive than hydrogen. If renewables and electrolysis get cheap enough, hydrogen might even beat oil and gas here on cost.

maliker 5y ago
I think batteries will win in long duration storage over hydrogen as well. Batteries have a self-discharge rate, but geological hydrogen storage or cryogenic/pressurized tank storage also has a loss rate, and unpressurized tanks are very expensive. Last time I checked in the literature these loss rates were very similar to battery self-discharge rates. Of course these numbers are tricky to estimate exactly, so I'm open to the idea that a low loss hydrogen storage method might be out there. And of course the prices in these areas are changing quickly, so sources from 10+ years ago don't give a good picture of where we are now or will be in the future.
- nichyoung 5y ago
  Future costs are never certain. And it may depend where in the world you are. I’m pretty sure salt caverns full of hydrogen are a lot cheaper than most people expect batteries to get for storing (transmission grid scale) energy for a month or more. And I think that’s mostly because lithium, plentiful as it is, is unlikely to ever be as cheap as water. But admittedly not everywhere has the geology for the storing the hydrogen really cheaply. And, of course, in many ways an electrolysis to hydrogen storage to fuel cell system is just a type of (flow) battery. So in some ways this is a question of what type of battery system will win (as are discussions of hydrogen vehicles really, though I’d personally see those as staying pretty niche). Edit: typo further to future.