3 ms·

The original post had a reference to the Port of Beirut which had a ammonium nitrate explosion. That type of explosion don't require oxygen to my knowledge - de

The original post had a reference to the Port of Beirut which had a ammonium nitrate explosion. That type of explosion don't require oxygen to my knowledge - denotation is caused by shockwave and in fact ammonium nitrate is itself a strong oxidizer, from what I read; "While ammonium nitrate is stable at ambient temperature and pressure under many conditions, it may detonate from a strong initiation charge. It should not be stored near high explosives or blasting agents." "Pure ammonium nitrate does not burn, but as a strong oxidizer, it supports and accelerates the combustion of organic (and some inorganic) material." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate#Safety,_handling,_and_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate#Safety,_handl... Hydrogen would behave more like gasoline. It's only when there is a fuel-oxygen mixture do they start explosively burning - i.e. it should not go off all at once unless you pump the tank with oxygen and mix them/give the oxygen time to diffuse through the tank.

dredmorbius 5y ago
Petrol doesn't tend to molecularly diffuse through solid containment, or embrittle metals. It's also remarkably difficult to ignite --- you can extinguish a match in it. A cigarette is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZOE1nvlhI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZOE1nvlhI (Note that ignition will usually but not always fail. I don't advise making a habit of this.) Hydrogen is far more readily ignited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RudCaJB_Xx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RudCaJB_Xx4 (It can also produce surprises after burning for a while.) Whilst it's true that a container or pipeline filled with gaseous or liquid hydrogen would be unlikely to explode iself directly, chances are reasonably high of leaks developing and from those, explosive mixes of hydrogen and air either within ground cavities or nearby structures. Embritlement might result in catastrophic failure of tanks or pipes (petrol is also rarely stored at high pressures or cryogenic temperatures). Resulting thermal and pressure shocks could further extend damage and increase rates of release and combustion. Resulting conflagrations might more closely resemble natural gas fires than ammonium nitrate / ANFO explosions, but those can be dangerous enough of themselves. Keep in mind that ANFO also tends not to flow as a liquid or gas, and whilst it reacts very rapidly, has only about ten percent of the energy by unit mass of hydrocarbon or pure hydrogen fuels. Once ignited, and if supplied with atmospheric oxygen, hydrogen will burn quite vigorously, and even explosively (flame front expanding faster than the speed of sound) given a proper stochiometric balance. All told, if anything goes wrong with a large hydrogen storage or distribution facility, it will quite probably be quite spectacular.
- worrycue 5y ago
  Hydrogen storage seem like a pretty mature field, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank We have dealt with gasoline, which can leak and is just as dangerous, IMO just fine for decades - and gasoline vapor has a tendency to pool near the ground rather than float off and disperse high into the sky like hydrogen. Franky, it seems just about every energy storage system has pretty frightening failure modes - I take it you have seen the video of a Tesla fiercely burning up in a carpark in China.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    Again: Petrol does not mollecularly diffuse through solid material and embrittle it in the process. How many hydrogen storage tanks and pipelines do you think exist today? How are they regulated? How much hydrogen is stored and transported via them annually? How does this compare with the number of petrol fuel tanks and pipelines, numbering in the many hundreds of millions for automobiles alone? And the volume of petrol stored and transported on an annual basis? Limited lab, hospital, aerospace, and industrial hydrogen usage is not the same as parking a hydrogen bomb in every residential garage, or assembling collections of them in apartment, commercial, or office-tower parking structures. EV's are irrelevant to this question, but I've got you covered: About 3 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547486 10 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284804 FWIW: I see hydrogen-derived synfuels as a potential / probable option going forward in some uses (marine, aviation, possibly rail), but reformulated into hydrocarbon equivalents of current fossil fuels, probably via something like the Fischer-Tropsch process. That's been uneconomic to date, though it's chemically feasible. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/28nqoz/electrical_fuel_synthesis_from_seawater_older/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/28nqoz/electri... Alphabet explored this through "Project Foghorn". I'd argue that petroleum is priced far too low, rather than synfuels too high as they state.
    - worrycue 5y ago
      > Again: Petrol does not mollecularly diffuse through solid material and embrittle it in the process. Don't use metal. If you do replace it periodically - let's not pretend batteries last forever either. A bit of leakage is acceptable. Did you know that natural gas that already in widespread use today leaks as well. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919347275 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603... Come to think of it, most of the problems we have with hydrogen we also have with natural gas - which we dealt with just fine; we even had natural gas powered cars, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle Hydrogen storage is an active field of research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage I say we keep our options open. It's worth further exploring the use of hydrogen as a energy storage and transportation medium.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Petrol doesn't tend to molecularly diffuse through solid containment, or embrittle metals. It's also remarkably difficult to ignite --- you can extinguish a match in it. A cigarette is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZOE1nvlhI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsZOE1nvlhI (Note that ignition will usually but not always fail. I don't advise making a habit of this.) Hydrogen is far more readily ignited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RudCaJB_Xx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RudCaJB_Xx4 (It can also produce surprises after burning for a while.) Whilst it's true that a container or pipeline filled with gaseous or liquid hydrogen would be unlikely to explode iself directly, chances are reasonably high of leaks developing and from those, explosive mixes of hydrogen and air either within ground cavities or nearby structures. Embritlement might result in catastrophic failure of tanks or pipes (petrol is also rarely stored at high pressures or cryogenic temperatures). Resulting thermal and pressure shocks could further extend damage and increase rates of release and combustion. Resulting conflagrations might more closely resemble natural gas fires than ammonium nitrate / ANFO explosions, but those can be dangerous enough of themselves. Keep in mind that ANFO also tends not to flow as a liquid or gas, and whilst it reacts very rapidly, has only about ten percent of the energy by unit mass of hydrocarbon or pure hydrogen fuels. Once ignited, and if supplied with atmospheric oxygen, hydrogen will burn quite vigorously, and even explosively (flame front expanding faster than the speed of sound) given a proper stochiometric balance. All told, if anything goes wrong with a large hydrogen storage or distribution facility, it will quite probably be quite spectacular.

worrycue 5y ago
Hydrogen storage seem like a pretty mature field, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_tank We have dealt with gasoline, which can leak and is just as dangerous, IMO just fine for decades - and gasoline vapor has a tendency to pool near the ground rather than float off and disperse high into the sky like hydrogen. Franky, it seems just about every energy storage system has pretty frightening failure modes - I take it you have seen the video of a Tesla fiercely burning up in a carpark in China.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Again: Petrol does not mollecularly diffuse through solid material and embrittle it in the process. How many hydrogen storage tanks and pipelines do you think exist today? How are they regulated? How much hydrogen is stored and transported via them annually? How does this compare with the number of petrol fuel tanks and pipelines, numbering in the many hundreds of millions for automobiles alone? And the volume of petrol stored and transported on an annual basis? Limited lab, hospital, aerospace, and industrial hydrogen usage is not the same as parking a hydrogen bomb in every residential garage, or assembling collections of them in apartment, commercial, or office-tower parking structures. EV's are irrelevant to this question, but I've got you covered: About 3 weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28547486 10 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3284804 FWIW: I see hydrogen-derived synfuels as a potential / probable option going forward in some uses (marine, aviation, possibly rail), but reformulated into hydrocarbon equivalents of current fossil fuels, probably via something like the Fischer-Tropsch process. That's been uneconomic to date, though it's chemically feasible. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/28nqoz/electrical_fuel_synthesis_from_seawater_older/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/28nqoz/electri... Alphabet explored this through "Project Foghorn". I'd argue that petroleum is priced far too low, rather than synfuels too high as they state.
  - worrycue 5y ago
    > Again: Petrol does not mollecularly diffuse through solid material and embrittle it in the process. Don't use metal. If you do replace it periodically - let's not pretend batteries last forever either. A bit of leakage is acceptable. Did you know that natural gas that already in widespread use today leaks as well. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919347275 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03603... Come to think of it, most of the problems we have with hydrogen we also have with natural gas - which we dealt with just fine; we even had natural gas powered cars, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle Hydrogen storage is an active field of research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage I say we keep our options open. It's worth further exploring the use of hydrogen as a energy storage and transportation medium.