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> I understand these issues. I seriously doubt you do. The closest you can get to “standard address format” is: Address Line 1 Address Line 2 Address Line n

> I understand these issues. I seriously doubt you do. The closest you can get to “standard address format” is: Address Line 1 Address Line 2 Address Line n Postal code (which can be blank) Postal Area (which can be blank) Country There is no way to build “first-class” support for addresses. Because theres no such thing as a valid or invalid address, only whether or not someone can find the correct location by reading the address. Of course, that person should be a local and intimately familiar with local address conventions. Conventions that will change how you describe flat numbers, street name, and address line ordering. > And considering how often one needs to manipulate addresses in business settings, Anyone who’s ever had to deal with real addresses would know this is the one thing you avoid doing with addresses. It’s pretty much impossible to correctly “manipulate” an address, because again, there’s no standard, it’s entirely dictated by local conventions, which can change street-to-street, city-to-city. The best you can hope for when you’re forced to mutilate and address, is make the mutilation simple and obvious enough that the human actually delivering the post can un-mutilate it when they read it.

jhgb 5y ago
I don't see how this changes anything. You can accommodate any address format, or any finite union of multiple address formats, including any computed or materialized views of the address with a custom type (AND including an "I give up" default for when everything else fails). > there’s no standard, it’s entirely dictated by local conventions, which can change street-to-street, city-to-city Well, that may be an international issue. In my country's case, it's quite clearly defined by law. A type for an international case might by necessity be a union of unions.
- wbl 5y ago
  I know what to write on my envelopes so they get to me. You do not. Your job is to make it possible for things you send to get to me, not the other 3 units in the apartment. Good luck with the Oakland addresses in Berkeley.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Yes, I said that the complete type would have to have components developed by others as well, since I can't provide input for other countries. Doesn't mean that a minimum complexity formalization is impossible (in fact, mathematically, by enumeration one such formalization must exist). An "as-given" component is obviously always going to work for you.
    - wbl 5y ago
      What's the point vs repeating what people give?
    - dlainhart 5y ago
      Addresses are first and foremost a social convention. Simple mathematics will not help you understand something with so much implicit complexity and contradiction.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  > In my country's case, it's quite clearly defined by law. I theory the same is true in my country. But clearly someone forgot to inform the populous that not using the official standard is criminal, because I’ve seen plenty of “valid” addresses that don’t follow the standard. These addresses are clearly encoding local conventions, which makes decoding using the official standard not only impossible, but nonsensical, because manipulations that assume the standard will produce unusable addresses. Best part is, i know this because i was responsible for the system that was then to munge these addresses into the “official” format for tax reasons. That code is 99% edge cases, 0.09% “well shit, just shove it all in the last line and hope for the best” and 0.01% “official” standard.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    The type should always include provisions for manual fixes. IMO such an address type should even include a provision for manual geocoding for cases where automated geocoding fails ("This is how I write it, and this is where it's located").
    - avianlyric 5y ago
      In that case, whats the value of the system? 99% of the time an address is just a “unique” opaque identifier. You ingest the address, then you print it on the parcel. You avoid manipulating or trying to interpret it too much. A system that attempts to codify address to a standard that can’t express all addresses (including their nuance) is useful. You can’t trust any analytics created from it, because by its nature, address that can’t be interpreted will appear in geographic clusters, and thus skew all your stats. You can however collect address as opaque strings, and optionally request extra data of a know format (like zipcode or postal code) which is generally considered part of the address. You can then produce stats only on those well know identifiers, and ignore the rest. But doing that doesn’t require a complicated address type, or supporting address manipulations or any other crap like that. It just requires a free text box, and a separate postal code box. The most important thing to recognise is that any arbitrary address will fit many different address conventions, but each of those conventions will result in a different location. It practically impossible to definitively interpret an arbitrary address correctly, without significant amounts of additional local context. So its best not to bother, and let the postal workers figure it out using their local knowledge.
- TheCoelacanth 5y ago
  That might work if you have infinite resources and can create special handling for individual cities in the world or maybe even individual neighborhoods. Mailing works in a very decentralized way and has a lot of local variations when you go outside of places that have put a lot of effort into standardizing addresses. Most post offices won't be looking at your whole address. They just care about understanding enough to forward it to a post office one step closer to the final destination. Understanding the final local address might not even use written data. It might just be tacit knowledge that's shared between a few local postal workers.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    IMO that just makes it a very interesting problem to work on. > Understanding the final local address might not even use written data. It might just be tacit knowledge that's shared between a few local postal workers. To me there seems to be a contradiction in those two statements. By definition, an address is written. You can't decide where to deliver an item in any other way. If one and the same written text of the address could imply two or more "final local addresses", and somehow the delivery worker decided where is the item actually supposed to arrive, how would the sender indicate the alternatives if not by including it in the text of the address? Or did you mean something different by this?
    - avianlyric 5y ago
      > You can't decide where to deliver an item in any other way. Only if you’re a robot, which postal workers aren't. They can use local context, such as no one lives at address X so they must have meant address Y. Or even, person at address X has a birthday this week, so this envelop that looks like a birthday card, and has their misspelled name on it, is obviously for address X not address Y. I’ve had our friendly postal worker deliver post correctly to me, despite having a throughly munged and incorrect address, because she recognised my name, and knew someone with a similar name didn’t live at the more obvious interpretation of the incorrect address. So address parsing and mail delivery is an extremely human and imprecise process. Full of nuance and edge cases that can’t even be observed, unless you actually follow the humans making deliveries and see what they’re doing.
fragmede 5y ago
Address Line 1 Address Line 2 Is the only way to do this, btw. any other options are going to be broken in other locations. I’m thinking specifically of apartment/unit number, eg Street address Apartment number This seems equivalent, but due to country specific differences, street and apartment is impossible to do correctly, or at least way harder than using line 1, line 2. This is because sometimes apartment number should come first, other times street needs to come first so the user has to second-guess your system in order to get mail delivered, while numbered lines are (hopefully) less ambiguous.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Yeah this is one of my big frustrations with many address systems. Street address Apartment number Is an (i think) and American convention. Here in the UK you would have Flat Number, Building Name Street Name (or possibly Street Number Street Name) Having addresses printed with the lines in the opposite order looks wrong to me. Additionally the American convention seems to assume all addresses are pretty simple, with there being an XOR relationship between street number and building name.
  - dlainhart 5y ago
    > Additionally the American convention seems to assume all addresses are pretty simple, with there being an XOR relationship between street number and building name. It doesn't assume anything of the sort. American addresses are a reference tag to direct the postal service where to send your mail. That's it.

jhgb 5y ago

I don't see how this changes anything. You can accommodate any address format, or any finite union of multiple address formats, including any computed or materialized views of the address with a custom type (AND including an "I give up" default for when everything else fails). > there’s no standard, it’s entirely dictated by local conventions, which can change street-to-street, city-to-city Well, that may be an international issue. In my country's case, it's quite clearly defined by law. A type for an international case might by necessity be a union of unions.

wbl 5y ago
I know what to write on my envelopes so they get to me. You do not. Your job is to make it possible for things you send to get to me, not the other 3 units in the apartment. Good luck with the Oakland addresses in Berkeley.
- jhgb 5y ago
  Yes, I said that the complete type would have to have components developed by others as well, since I can't provide input for other countries. Doesn't mean that a minimum complexity formalization is impossible (in fact, mathematically, by enumeration one such formalization must exist). An "as-given" component is obviously always going to work for you.
  - wbl 5y ago
    What's the point vs repeating what people give?
  - dlainhart 5y ago
    Addresses are first and foremost a social convention. Simple mathematics will not help you understand something with so much implicit complexity and contradiction.
avianlyric 5y ago
> In my country's case, it's quite clearly defined by law. I theory the same is true in my country. But clearly someone forgot to inform the populous that not using the official standard is criminal, because I’ve seen plenty of “valid” addresses that don’t follow the standard. These addresses are clearly encoding local conventions, which makes decoding using the official standard not only impossible, but nonsensical, because manipulations that assume the standard will produce unusable addresses. Best part is, i know this because i was responsible for the system that was then to munge these addresses into the “official” format for tax reasons. That code is 99% edge cases, 0.09% “well shit, just shove it all in the last line and hope for the best” and 0.01% “official” standard.
- jhgb 5y ago
  The type should always include provisions for manual fixes. IMO such an address type should even include a provision for manual geocoding for cases where automated geocoding fails ("This is how I write it, and this is where it's located").
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    In that case, whats the value of the system? 99% of the time an address is just a “unique” opaque identifier. You ingest the address, then you print it on the parcel. You avoid manipulating or trying to interpret it too much. A system that attempts to codify address to a standard that can’t express all addresses (including their nuance) is useful. You can’t trust any analytics created from it, because by its nature, address that can’t be interpreted will appear in geographic clusters, and thus skew all your stats. You can however collect address as opaque strings, and optionally request extra data of a know format (like zipcode or postal code) which is generally considered part of the address. You can then produce stats only on those well know identifiers, and ignore the rest. But doing that doesn’t require a complicated address type, or supporting address manipulations or any other crap like that. It just requires a free text box, and a separate postal code box. The most important thing to recognise is that any arbitrary address will fit many different address conventions, but each of those conventions will result in a different location. It practically impossible to definitively interpret an arbitrary address correctly, without significant amounts of additional local context. So its best not to bother, and let the postal workers figure it out using their local knowledge.
TheCoelacanth 5y ago
That might work if you have infinite resources and can create special handling for individual cities in the world or maybe even individual neighborhoods. Mailing works in a very decentralized way and has a lot of local variations when you go outside of places that have put a lot of effort into standardizing addresses. Most post offices won't be looking at your whole address. They just care about understanding enough to forward it to a post office one step closer to the final destination. Understanding the final local address might not even use written data. It might just be tacit knowledge that's shared between a few local postal workers.
- jhgb 5y ago
  IMO that just makes it a very interesting problem to work on. > Understanding the final local address might not even use written data. It might just be tacit knowledge that's shared between a few local postal workers. To me there seems to be a contradiction in those two statements. By definition, an address is written. You can't decide where to deliver an item in any other way. If one and the same written text of the address could imply two or more "final local addresses", and somehow the delivery worker decided where is the item actually supposed to arrive, how would the sender indicate the alternatives if not by including it in the text of the address? Or did you mean something different by this?
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    > You can't decide where to deliver an item in any other way. Only if you’re a robot, which postal workers aren't. They can use local context, such as no one lives at address X so they must have meant address Y. Or even, person at address X has a birthday this week, so this envelop that looks like a birthday card, and has their misspelled name on it, is obviously for address X not address Y. I’ve had our friendly postal worker deliver post correctly to me, despite having a throughly munged and incorrect address, because she recognised my name, and knew someone with a similar name didn’t live at the more obvious interpretation of the incorrect address. So address parsing and mail delivery is an extremely human and imprecise process. Full of nuance and edge cases that can’t even be observed, unless you actually follow the humans making deliveries and see what they’re doing.

fragmede 5y ago

Address Line 1 Address Line 2 Is the only way to do this, btw. any other options are going to be broken in other locations. I’m thinking specifically of apartment/unit number, eg Street address Apartment number This seems equivalent, but due to country specific differences, street and apartment is impossible to do correctly, or at least way harder than using line 1, line 2. This is because sometimes apartment number should come first, other times street needs to come first so the user has to second-guess your system in order to get mail delivered, while numbered lines are (hopefully) less ambiguous.

avianlyric 5y ago
Yeah this is one of my big frustrations with many address systems. Street address Apartment number Is an (i think) and American convention. Here in the UK you would have Flat Number, Building Name Street Name (or possibly Street Number Street Name) Having addresses printed with the lines in the opposite order looks wrong to me. Additionally the American convention seems to assume all addresses are pretty simple, with there being an XOR relationship between street number and building name.
- dlainhart 5y ago
  > Additionally the American convention seems to assume all addresses are pretty simple, with there being an XOR relationship between street number and building name. It doesn't assume anything of the sort. American addresses are a reference tag to direct the postal service where to send your mail. That's it.