4 ms·

Why are you presenting rainwater and compost toilets as negative / mediaval solutions? It's like criticizing a bicyle, They are perfect efficient solutions. If

Why are you presenting rainwater and compost toilets as negative / mediaval solutions? It's like criticizing a bicyle, They are perfect efficient solutions. If you eat organic food, your excrement is more or less fertilizer, no need to spend resources and energy treating them

CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
Isn't using human excrement as fertilizer a big no for food safety?
- giantg2 5y ago
  If properly handled/processed, it's ok. One consideration is what people are consuming to create it. For example, some medications are found in excrement. I don't know which, if any, can be taken up by plants. So this along with any other chemicals people flush would make me leary of using sewage from a sewer plant, but residential level systems have a lot more control over those inputs.
- op00to 5y ago
  Yes.
- foxhop 5y ago
  Proper decomposition and enough time renders the material safe for application to food crops (typically 1-2 years and applied to Perennial crops as "side dressing"). That said, you must separate humanure from safer waste which may be applied as crop dressing in as little as 18 days using hot composting methods. For more details checkout my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini An easy compost toilet is a bucket to poo into and woodchips or sawdust which is high carbon and soaks up smells and liquids, is layered after each use, emptied into a dedicated pile oftened tarped to control moisture.
- Litost 5y ago
  It's been a while since I've read the Humanure Handbook and I've not practiced many of the techniques in it but it does cover this topic in great detail: https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ I believe it is possible you just have to be really careful with how it's treated, especially around vegetables etc. There's also a natural blackwater treatment system, briefly mentioned in this really great video from one of my favourite Permaculture teachers (EDIT: it's at 46:45), which also happens to be a great introduction to Permaculture if you're interested: https://vimeo.com/95060300 https://vimeo.com/95060300
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Yes. The human digestive system adds bacteria you don't want in your fertilizer.
  - tzs 5y ago
    What if you just use the plants grown using human waster for fertilizer as animal feed and then eat those animals rather than eating the plants directly? Does that make it safe or make it worse?
    - b3morales 5y ago
      Pigs at least are susceptible to some of the same harmful digestive tract bacteria that we are.
  - jes 5y ago
    What bacteria are especially bad and found only in human excrement?
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  That's why all sorts of taboos exist in societies where it was common. Ask an older Chinese guy what is worse, eating fresh lettuce or smoking? Sure, smoking might kill, but raw vegetables will kill you quicker.
sandworm101 5y ago
Flushing toilets with rainwater is one thing, outhouses and drinking rainwater another. We have health codes for a reason. We modern people have no memory of what cholera is like. It and all its nasty friends are out there waiting for us to make a mistake.
- dtgriscom 5y ago
  You don't get cholera from drinking rainwater, unless it's contaminated by something terrestrial.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  What is t he problem specifically with drinking rainwater? Sure, I don't want to drink rainwater that fell on my asphalt shingle roof. I also don't really want to drink the rain water the ultimately ends up in the river I live near to and which the city sewers empty into (including upstream cities) but that's what they do. Sure that water is treated before it arrives through pipes into people's houses. I'd take properly collected and treated rainwater directly from my own property any day over that.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    It's great when it comes strait from the clouds. What did it land on? How was it stored? How did it get from one to the other? Rainwater isn't pure water. It will contain dust and pollen. The system it lands on (ie a roof) will also have other things land on it (birds/insects etc). So by the time it gets to the storage tank the "pure" rainwater might contain a wide variety other stuff. Drinking it without treatment isn't always a great idea.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      I never said it was pure and I never said I'd drink it "pure" and even gave a specifically bad example (the asphalt shingle roof runoff) and mentioned proper treatment and catchment. This is not the kind of system you'd probably find doable on a small city lot and yes I guess people would be tempted to just drink their asphalt shingle roof runoff - until they see the water. But the context presumably is acreage type off-grid living. The landscape can also help. Dunno if you saw a recent-ish article here on HN on some South American farmers directing rain water such that it flows slowly through various layers on slopes until it reaches the bottom even having it re-emerge as natural springs in some places. Won't work if you live on the prairies, sure. Could work in other locations.

CorrectHorseBat 5y ago

Isn't using human excrement as fertilizer a big no for food safety?

giantg2 5y ago
If properly handled/processed, it's ok. One consideration is what people are consuming to create it. For example, some medications are found in excrement. I don't know which, if any, can be taken up by plants. So this along with any other chemicals people flush would make me leary of using sewage from a sewer plant, but residential level systems have a lot more control over those inputs.
op00to 5y ago
Yes.
foxhop 5y ago
Proper decomposition and enough time renders the material safe for application to food crops (typically 1-2 years and applied to Perennial crops as "side dressing"). That said, you must separate humanure from safer waste which may be applied as crop dressing in as little as 18 days using hot composting methods. For more details checkout my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini An easy compost toilet is a bucket to poo into and woodchips or sawdust which is high carbon and soaks up smells and liquids, is layered after each use, emptied into a dedicated pile oftened tarped to control moisture.
Litost 5y ago
It's been a while since I've read the Humanure Handbook and I've not practiced many of the techniques in it but it does cover this topic in great detail: https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ I believe it is possible you just have to be really careful with how it's treated, especially around vegetables etc. There's also a natural blackwater treatment system, briefly mentioned in this really great video from one of my favourite Permaculture teachers (EDIT: it's at 46:45), which also happens to be a great introduction to Permaculture if you're interested: https://vimeo.com/95060300 https://vimeo.com/95060300
HWR_14 5y ago
Yes. The human digestive system adds bacteria you don't want in your fertilizer.
- tzs 5y ago
  What if you just use the plants grown using human waster for fertilizer as animal feed and then eat those animals rather than eating the plants directly? Does that make it safe or make it worse?
  - b3morales 5y ago
    Pigs at least are susceptible to some of the same harmful digestive tract bacteria that we are.
- jes 5y ago
  What bacteria are especially bad and found only in human excrement?
HarryHirsch 5y ago
That's why all sorts of taboos exist in societies where it was common. Ask an older Chinese guy what is worse, eating fresh lettuce or smoking? Sure, smoking might kill, but raw vegetables will kill you quicker.

sandworm101 5y ago

Flushing toilets with rainwater is one thing, outhouses and drinking rainwater another. We have health codes for a reason. We modern people have no memory of what cholera is like. It and all its nasty friends are out there waiting for us to make a mistake.

dtgriscom 5y ago
You don't get cholera from drinking rainwater, unless it's contaminated by something terrestrial.
tharkun__ 5y ago
What is t he problem specifically with drinking rainwater? Sure, I don't want to drink rainwater that fell on my asphalt shingle roof. I also don't really want to drink the rain water the ultimately ends up in the river I live near to and which the city sewers empty into (including upstream cities) but that's what they do. Sure that water is treated before it arrives through pipes into people's houses. I'd take properly collected and treated rainwater directly from my own property any day over that.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  It's great when it comes strait from the clouds. What did it land on? How was it stored? How did it get from one to the other? Rainwater isn't pure water. It will contain dust and pollen. The system it lands on (ie a roof) will also have other things land on it (birds/insects etc). So by the time it gets to the storage tank the "pure" rainwater might contain a wide variety other stuff. Drinking it without treatment isn't always a great idea.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    I never said it was pure and I never said I'd drink it "pure" and even gave a specifically bad example (the asphalt shingle roof runoff) and mentioned proper treatment and catchment. This is not the kind of system you'd probably find doable on a small city lot and yes I guess people would be tempted to just drink their asphalt shingle roof runoff - until they see the water. But the context presumably is acreage type off-grid living. The landscape can also help. Dunno if you saw a recent-ish article here on HN on some South American farmers directing rain water such that it flows slowly through various layers on slopes until it reaches the bottom even having it re-emerge as natural springs in some places. Won't work if you live on the prairies, sure. Could work in other locations.