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Regarding this issue of "innate" talent, I want to ask, how do you know? there are just so many variables that go into human cognition. Belief. Drive. Focus. G

Regarding this issue of "innate" talent, I want to ask, how do you know? there are just so many variables that go into human cognition. Belief. Drive. Focus. Grit. Exposure to ideas. Social support. Physical resources. Exercise. Health. Each of these contribute, in some way, to every moment we spend learning. They are always changing. Each moment we learn affects the outcome of the next. It's Conway's game of life in n-dimensions. My second question, and this is perhaps more important; what is the effect of a belief in innate talent? What don't you do or try because you believed it wouldn't work? Because you believed you couldn't? What do you beliefs cost you? I realize my questions are pointed, and for that I apologize. They are, however, genuine.

diob 5y ago
They've done some pretty extensive studies on ability / achievement. The big driver being parents wanting to ensure their kids turn out great, or to make their kids smart. Turns out environment can only really have _detrimental_ effects on outcomes for kids. You can't increase what they don't have, but you definitely can fuck them up. I thought it was pretty interesting. So basically, the advice most parents get now is, don't drop them on their head :) Of course, that also means provide them with the opportunities to learn / use their ability.
- pksebben 5y ago
  Can you link to these? I'm interested in what they found out, if a little skeptical about how thinking can be precisely measured.
  - diob 5y ago
    I went back and dug to find the exact source I was thinking of (I heard it in a freakonomics podcast long ago, took awhile to find). https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reasons-to-be-cheerful/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reasons-to-be-cheerful/ https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/Nature_vs_Nurture__Does_parenting_affect_IQ.html https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/Nature_vs_Nurture__Do... The big thing is this is purely about IQ. Think of it like folks being born at a certain IQ, and you can really only maintain it (exercise, love, healthy eating, sleep, etc.) You can't bolster it beyond what is innate. However, you (and your environment, typically our parents) can definitely cause decreases in your IQ (poor sleep, anxiety, poor nutrition, toxins like lead, etc.) I found it pretty interesting, but also kind of obvious in hindsight. I would love to be able to increase my IQ, as would many others, but we all gotta just work the best to maximize what we got. Maybe tech / gene manipulation will make it possible in the future though.
    - pksebben 5y ago
      So, there are a ton of resources out there on how unreliable IQ is, and whether it's a valid indicator of general cognitive ability. Instead of linking them, I'll just link to the place that has the most good links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Reliability_and_validity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Reliabil... My understanding is that save for general statistical measures of a large aggregate, IQ is a poor measure for an individual (as it has been shown to change quite a bit for individuals over the course of a lifetime).
jhrmnn 5y ago
It’s probably not important whether the talent is encoded in someone’s DNA or whether it was formed during their childhood and early education they got. But by the time people are teenagers, there can be large differences in learning ability that are impossible to level anymore. You can push through those differences through “belief, drive, focus, grit,” etc, but the baselines are different.
- pksebben 5y ago
  there are differences between any two people anywhere ever, though. Is there some reason that being over 20 means you're done developing?
  - jhrmnn 5y ago
    You can learn a new foreign language when you’re 20. But it’s way easier when you’re 10 or 5. Same goes for learning to play chess, to code, and more broadly, for learning to learn.
    - Arisaka1 5y ago
      Isn't this because everything is new to you when you have close to no life experience? Aside from our default programming mode of eat, sleep, walk the bucket we call brain is practically empty of experiences and theories when we are 5.
    - pksebben 5y ago
      I'm 35. I started learning to code 5 years ago. I have a job in the industry, and I advance my understanding of the space daily - I'm sorry, but that just doesn't gel with the actual, firsthand experience I have with this stuff. You're never past expanding your understanding of the world.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

diob 5y ago

They've done some pretty extensive studies on ability / achievement. The big driver being parents wanting to ensure their kids turn out great, or to make their kids smart. Turns out environment can only really have _detrimental_ effects on outcomes for kids. You can't increase what they don't have, but you definitely can fuck them up. I thought it was pretty interesting. So basically, the advice most parents get now is, don't drop them on their head :) Of course, that also means provide them with the opportunities to learn / use their ability.

pksebben 5y ago
Can you link to these? I'm interested in what they found out, if a little skeptical about how thinking can be precisely measured.
- diob 5y ago
  I went back and dug to find the exact source I was thinking of (I heard it in a freakonomics podcast long ago, took awhile to find). https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reasons-to-be-cheerful/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reasons-to-be-cheerful/ https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/Nature_vs_Nurture__Does_parenting_affect_IQ.html https://www.inquirer.com/philly/health/Nature_vs_Nurture__Do... The big thing is this is purely about IQ. Think of it like folks being born at a certain IQ, and you can really only maintain it (exercise, love, healthy eating, sleep, etc.) You can't bolster it beyond what is innate. However, you (and your environment, typically our parents) can definitely cause decreases in your IQ (poor sleep, anxiety, poor nutrition, toxins like lead, etc.) I found it pretty interesting, but also kind of obvious in hindsight. I would love to be able to increase my IQ, as would many others, but we all gotta just work the best to maximize what we got. Maybe tech / gene manipulation will make it possible in the future though.
  - pksebben 5y ago
    So, there are a ton of resources out there on how unreliable IQ is, and whether it's a valid indicator of general cognitive ability. Instead of linking them, I'll just link to the place that has the most good links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Reliability_and_validity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Reliabil... My understanding is that save for general statistical measures of a large aggregate, IQ is a poor measure for an individual (as it has been shown to change quite a bit for individuals over the course of a lifetime).

jhrmnn 5y ago

It’s probably not important whether the talent is encoded in someone’s DNA or whether it was formed during their childhood and early education they got. But by the time people are teenagers, there can be large differences in learning ability that are impossible to level anymore. You can push through those differences through “belief, drive, focus, grit,” etc, but the baselines are different.

pksebben 5y ago
there are differences between any two people anywhere ever, though. Is there some reason that being over 20 means you're done developing?
- jhrmnn 5y ago
  You can learn a new foreign language when you’re 20. But it’s way easier when you’re 10 or 5. Same goes for learning to play chess, to code, and more broadly, for learning to learn.
  - Arisaka1 5y ago
    Isn't this because everything is new to you when you have close to no life experience? Aside from our default programming mode of eat, sleep, walk the bucket we call brain is practically empty of experiences and theories when we are 5.
  - pksebben 5y ago
    I'm 35. I started learning to code 5 years ago. I have a job in the industry, and I advance my understanding of the space daily - I'm sorry, but that just doesn't gel with the actual, firsthand experience I have with this stuff. You're never past expanding your understanding of the world.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]