5 ms·

You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www

by rsj_hn 5y ago

You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/default_en.htm https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/defaul... Take all the time you need. You'll find lots of specific agreements on wheat subsidies, travel restrictions, etc. But a general claim that EU courts can override Polish courts or EU law to supercede Polish law? It's not there. If you think it is, please go ahead and cite the passage in the treaty. Otherwise please withdraw the claim.

pavlov 5y ago
Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU, whether the member states are living up to their agreement. They do not directly rule on laws or override laws in the national parliaments.
  - pavlov 5y ago
    From the text of the Treaty of Lisbon: 17. Declaration concerning primacy The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Often laws are long winded and hard to understand so some confusion can be understandable. This is two lines and straightforward. "Yes, but I choose to ignore those parts."
  - krastanov 5y ago
    You are confusing EU regulations and EU directives. One is automatically binding. Read these two pages. They are fairly clear, contain references to primary sources, and disagree with your claims: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-la... https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14522 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... Article 288 Treaty on Functioning of the EU (ex Article 249 TEC) To exercise the Union's competences, the institutions shall adopt regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions. A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. [...]
    - mattmanser 5y ago
      "Shall adopt" means they have to make local laws. All you're doing is highlighting the grandparent's point. The grandparent is right and you're wrong. Also, be very wary about quoting sources that end in a domain .EU, they're obviously biased.
      - pgeorgi 5y ago
        If with "biased" you mean that they (europa.eu) are the official online resource which publishes the treaties in question, verbatim, you are correct. It's an unusual use of terminology, though.
      - krastanov 5y ago
        This is some pretty silly linguistic gymnastics.
weakwarm 5y ago
ARTICLE 1 1. The Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic hereby become members of the European Union and Parties to the Treaties on which the Union is founded as amended or supplemented. 2. The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded, entailed by such admission, are set out in the Act annexed to this Treaty. The provisions of that Act shall form an integral part of this Treaty. 3. The provisions concerning the rights and obligations of the Member States and the powers and jurisdiction of the institutions of the Union as set out in the Treaties referred to in paragraph 1 shall apply in respect of this Treaty. See also: Treaty of Lisbon, which Poland also signed. Specifically, Declaration 17: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12008E%2FAFI%2FDCL%2F17 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... 17. Declaration concerning primacy The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law. Edit: You may want to also have a look here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14548 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... "According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law. The precedence principle guarantees the superiority of European law over national laws. It is a fundamental principle of European law. As with the direct effect principle, it is not inscribed in the Treaties, but has been enshrined by the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU)."
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  None of that claims that EU laws override Polish laws or that EU judges can override Polish judges when interpreting Polish law. From the treaty: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012M/TXT&from=en https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... "To the extent that a provision of the Charter refers to national laws and practices, it shall only apply to Poland or the United Kingdom to the extent that the rights or principles that it contains are recognised in the law or practices of Poland or of the United Kingdom." Rather, it is an agreement in which national parliaments agree to pass national laws in harmony with certain EU laws, or face some penalties. The reason why national parliaments need to do that is because national laws and national constitutions as interpreted by national judges remain the supreme law of the land, and so this treaty was required in order to provide a framework to urge members states to harmonize or give up various EU funding perks. Look, I get that a lot of people want a Federal Europe, but you can't get there by pretending you've already arrived and being outraged at those who point out you haven't. The EU as presently constituted is basically the articles of confederation, where states need to pass local versions of EU laws, rather than something like a true Federal Europe.

by rsj_hn 5y ago

pavlov 5y ago

Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.

rsj_hn 5y ago
Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU, whether the member states are living up to their agreement. They do not directly rule on laws or override laws in the national parliaments.
- pavlov 5y ago
  From the text of the Treaty of Lisbon: 17. Declaration concerning primacy The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Often laws are long winded and hard to understand so some confusion can be understandable. This is two lines and straightforward. "Yes, but I choose to ignore those parts."
- krastanov 5y ago
  You are confusing EU regulations and EU directives. One is automatically binding. Read these two pages. They are fairly clear, contain references to primary sources, and disagree with your claims: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-law_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/types-eu-la... https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14522 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... Article 288 Treaty on Functioning of the EU (ex Article 249 TEC) To exercise the Union's competences, the institutions shall adopt regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions. A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States. [...]
  - mattmanser 5y ago
    "Shall adopt" means they have to make local laws. All you're doing is highlighting the grandparent's point. The grandparent is right and you're wrong. Also, be very wary about quoting sources that end in a domain .EU, they're obviously biased.
    - pgeorgi 5y ago
      If with "biased" you mean that they (europa.eu) are the official online resource which publishes the treaties in question, verbatim, you are correct. It's an unusual use of terminology, though.
    - krastanov 5y ago
      This is some pretty silly linguistic gymnastics.

weakwarm 5y ago

ARTICLE 1 1. The Czech Republic, the Republic of Estonia, the Republic of Cyprus, the Republic of Latvia, the Republic of Lithuania, the Republic of Hungary, the Republic of Malta, the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Slovenia and the Slovak Republic hereby become members of the European Union and Parties to the Treaties on which the Union is founded as amended or supplemented. 2. The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties on which the Union is founded, entailed by such admission, are set out in the Act annexed to this Treaty. The provisions of that Act shall form an integral part of this Treaty. 3. The provisions concerning the rights and obligations of the Member States and the powers and jurisdiction of the institutions of the Union as set out in the Treaties referred to in paragraph 1 shall apply in respect of this Treaty. See also: Treaty of Lisbon, which Poland also signed. Specifically, Declaration 17: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A12008E%2FAFI%2FDCL%2F17 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A... 17. Declaration concerning primacy The Conference recalls that, in accordance with well settled case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union, the Treaties and the law adopted by the Union on the basis of the Treaties have primacy over the law of Member States, under the conditions laid down by the said case law. Edit: You may want to also have a look here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Al14548 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM... "According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law. The precedence principle guarantees the superiority of European law over national laws. It is a fundamental principle of European law. As with the direct effect principle, it is not inscribed in the Treaties, but has been enshrined by the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU)."

rsj_hn 5y ago
None of that claims that EU laws override Polish laws or that EU judges can override Polish judges when interpreting Polish law. From the treaty: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012M/TXT&from=en https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... "To the extent that a provision of the Charter refers to national laws and practices, it shall only apply to Poland or the United Kingdom to the extent that the rights or principles that it contains are recognised in the law or practices of Poland or of the United Kingdom." Rather, it is an agreement in which national parliaments agree to pass national laws in harmony with certain EU laws, or face some penalties. The reason why national parliaments need to do that is because national laws and national constitutions as interpreted by national judges remain the supreme law of the land, and so this treaty was required in order to provide a framework to urge members states to harmonize or give up various EU funding perks. Look, I get that a lot of people want a Federal Europe, but you can't get there by pretending you've already arrived and being outraged at those who point out you haven't. The EU as presently constituted is basically the articles of confederation, where states need to pass local versions of EU laws, rather than something like a true Federal Europe.