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My grandfather was a HAM radio operator (KB2SX) and ran at least one ham radio group. My experience with him was that he'd go on nightly, or semi-nightly, and

My grandfather was a HAM radio operator (KB2SX) and ran at least one ham radio group. My experience with him was that he'd go on nightly, or semi-nightly, and meet virtually with other HAM radio operators. He wanted me to take a HAM test, but by the time I was at an age that would have been appropriate, there were other technologies emerging such as BBSes, online service providers (Compuserv, Prodigy and AOL), and then later the Internet. These technologies were so exciting to me, and I am sure that had they existed when my grandfather had started out, he would have used them instead of HAM radio, as for him it was about the socializing and connection. For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology, but not much else. One can't even transmit encrypted data across it legally, limiting even basic data transmission technology. This isn't so say that there isn't a part of me that's nostalgic for sitting on my grandfather's lap watching him tune the dials and adjust the glowing meters, but even for someone as middle aged as me, HAM radio was more of a nostalgia technology. You're also right about the younger folks finding many HAM operators to be curmudgeony. They're protective and can be somewhat elitist, with a high degree of friction (time, energy and cost) to even begin in the hobby, a smart kid who wants to tinker can find more welcoming hobbies. Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! Many kids today have grown up without a landline in their home.

the_only_law 5y ago
> For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology Under 43 here as well as someone involved in the retro scene. HAM stuff was never a retro for me, however I have consider looking into it when I developed an interest in RF based computer networks (my interest originated with modern tech). As someone who undereducated as fuck it seems like a decent way to build some of the base knowledge that I don’t have. I just haven’t got around to looking into it much. > Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. I actually tried to get a landline. Only thing available was a a DOCSIS modem for encapsulating VoIP traffic.
- emacsen 5y ago
  I'm not under 43, I'm 43. :) It also may be that when I 14-18 was a transformational time for the technology of computer communication. It was exciting. Maybe that excitement isn't there for people who are "always online". > heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it?
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    > Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it? It’s kinda of weird. I consider it telephony for sure (half of the TE’s I have are phones and a lot of equipment is T1/E1 equipment for PRI lines) but I also consider it under early computer data networks as it could carry X.25, Frame Relay and other types of traffic. It predates my time using computers a bit, but I believe it was also used for internet connections as uncommon as it was here.
    - emacsen 5y ago
      see, telephony is retro now ;) people are already making their own cell networks, so not sure what's next :)
      - ngcc_hk 5y ago
        Ham radio on cell. Problem same. It is not the technology it is the restriction. You use a common pool of radio which is shared. Regulation and rules of engagement abounded. Still it is better than just radio station as ham is 2 way (and n way based on 2 way). It is a bit decentralised. But read last paragraph. Totalitarian state would not like it.)
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      X.25 and friends definitely carried internet traffic.
      - jcims 5y ago
II2II 5y ago
Here's the paradox: radio communications play a much more significant role in our lives today, yet there is far less interest in experimenting with this modern (not retro) technology. Even those who are interested in electronics and who experiment with radio in a manner similar to radio amateurs in the past are unlikely to build wide area networks or experiment with new modes. We are the same age and we have seen the same progression of technology. I would argue that some of it is analagous to amateur radio. BBSes and some aspects of the Internet are very much in the spirit of ham radio. These are technologies that people used for communications and where people experimented as amateurs rather than as professionals. Just as radio amateurs created their own networks of repeaters, people setup networks of BBSes (e.g. relaying between BBSes or wiring LANs). I think that amateur radio faultered when it became more like online service providers or the modern web: people continued to use what was there, but it stagnated since few were experimenting and few were interested in creating infrastructure. I also see that attitude leaking into our online world. Consider something like Gemini. Some people experiment with it (as either developers or for communicating with others), which is very much in the spirit of ham radio. Yet there are also numerous naysayers, those who see their fancy new rigs (or web browsers) as being the only true measure of progress even though they can only partake in that world as the modern version of a ragchewer.
- TylerE 5y ago
  > Here's the paradox: radio communications play a much more significant role in our lives today Disagree. Digital radio yes, but that's "just digitial". Analog radio is a dinosaur.
  - vvanders 5y ago
    Except that digital depends on... analog radio. I honestly wish there was better ecosystem for SSB 2M or robust SDR platforms. You have a host of digital modes on HF but most of the 2M/70CM radios/chips are FM/FSK.
- vvanders 5y ago
  Yep, what's wild to me is there's actually a non-insignifiant overlap between radio and networks(ex: aloha from RF links in Hawaii ended up heavily influencing Ethernet and most of your cable modems use a variation of coding scheme(QAM) that is also widely used in more modern radio protocols).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
viraptor 5y ago
> I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology HAM as in radio operators clubs, sure. But SDR and other adjacent ideas are doing relatively well with younger people. Especially with rtl-sdr providing a really cheap entry point. But the whole official HAM environment and exams? Meh... I made some antennas to catch local device broadcasts and satellite transmissions, but I'm not interested in the classic stuff.
blip54321 5y ago
To me, the encryption things is a big issue. In 1950, transmitting for the world to hear seems reasonable. In 2021, virtually anyone with a few grand could record literally everything transmitted on the 160, 80, 40, 30, and 20 meter bands and archive it for all eternity. Do I want my casual conversations going into some historical record? Probably not. Testing is also a bother. I support testing, mind you, but so much of this is memorizing factoids. "What segment of the 20-meter band is most often used for digital transmissions (avoiding the DX propagation beacons)? (A) 14.000 - 14.050 MHz (B) 14.070 - 14.112 MHz (C) 14.150 - 14.225 MHz (D) 14.275 - 14.350 MHz." At least we finally got rid of Morse Code. And aside from that, the authorized modes of transmission aren't that interesting anymore. I'd enjoy experimenting with things like spread spectrum, or similar types of innovative things. Building an SSB radio in 2021 seems archaic.
- ninly 5y ago
  I think these things are changing, though I hope the changes come sooner than I suspect they actually will. I know there is ongoing discussion about how to bring rules more in line with modern practice and tech, such as the explosion of interest in digital operation over the past decade or so. I doubt this will reach to authorization of fully encrypted casual comms, though some form of encryption isn't out of the question when you get into the emergency comms piece of amateur radio, which is restricted from passing certain health and welfare information over the essentially "open line" of ham radio.
  - blip54321 5y ago
    A lot of this is closely related. Encryption and spread spectrum are sort of tied. Ideally, spread spectrum looks like noise. My carrier isn't a sine wave, but something which looks a lot like a one-time pad. If I'm allowed to experiment with modern transmission, security goes up, at least beyond the level of a casual listener. I also think you could maintain the spirit of ham radio with encryption. It kind of depends on how it's done. If I establish an encrypted connection to a stranger on the waves, and I'm using the connection to peddle commercial goods, if I do it enough times, someone will report me. There's also the issue of security when interacting with anything digital. I don't mind remotely controlling equipment in the clear, perhaps, but I do mind if strangers can commandeer it. Signing is good enough for that, but encryption is better. A lot of things I'd like to do -- if I were experimenting with radio -- I don't want hacked.

the_only_law 5y ago

> For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology Under 43 here as well as someone involved in the retro scene. HAM stuff was never a retro for me, however I have consider looking into it when I developed an interest in RF based computer networks (my interest originated with modern tech). As someone who undereducated as fuck it seems like a decent way to build some of the base knowledge that I don’t have. I just haven’t got around to looking into it much. > Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. I actually tried to get a landline. Only thing available was a a DOCSIS modem for encapsulating VoIP traffic.

emacsen 5y ago
I'm not under 43, I'm 43. :) It also may be that when I 14-18 was a transformational time for the technology of computer communication. It was exciting. Maybe that excitement isn't there for people who are "always online". > heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it?
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it? It’s kinda of weird. I consider it telephony for sure (half of the TE’s I have are phones and a lot of equipment is T1/E1 equipment for PRI lines) but I also consider it under early computer data networks as it could carry X.25, Frame Relay and other types of traffic. It predates my time using computers a bit, but I believe it was also used for internet connections as uncommon as it was here.
  - emacsen 5y ago
    see, telephony is retro now ;) people are already making their own cell networks, so not sure what's next :)
    - ngcc_hk 5y ago
      Ham radio on cell. Problem same. It is not the technology it is the restriction. You use a common pool of radio which is shared. Regulation and rules of engagement abounded. Still it is better than just radio station as ham is 2 way (and n way based on 2 way). It is a bit decentralised. But read last paragraph. Totalitarian state would not like it.)
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    X.25 and friends definitely carried internet traffic.
    - jcims 5y ago

II2II 5y ago

Here's the paradox: radio communications play a much more significant role in our lives today, yet there is far less interest in experimenting with this modern (not retro) technology. Even those who are interested in electronics and who experiment with radio in a manner similar to radio amateurs in the past are unlikely to build wide area networks or experiment with new modes. We are the same age and we have seen the same progression of technology. I would argue that some of it is analagous to amateur radio. BBSes and some aspects of the Internet are very much in the spirit of ham radio. These are technologies that people used for communications and where people experimented as amateurs rather than as professionals. Just as radio amateurs created their own networks of repeaters, people setup networks of BBSes (e.g. relaying between BBSes or wiring LANs). I think that amateur radio faultered when it became more like online service providers or the modern web: people continued to use what was there, but it stagnated since few were experimenting and few were interested in creating infrastructure. I also see that attitude leaking into our online world. Consider something like Gemini. Some people experiment with it (as either developers or for communicating with others), which is very much in the spirit of ham radio. Yet there are also numerous naysayers, those who see their fancy new rigs (or web browsers) as being the only true measure of progress even though they can only partake in that world as the modern version of a ragchewer.

TylerE 5y ago
> Here's the paradox: radio communications play a much more significant role in our lives today Disagree. Digital radio yes, but that's "just digitial". Analog radio is a dinosaur.
- vvanders 5y ago
  Except that digital depends on... analog radio. I honestly wish there was better ecosystem for SSB 2M or robust SDR platforms. You have a host of digital modes on HF but most of the 2M/70CM radios/chips are FM/FSK.
vvanders 5y ago
Yep, what's wild to me is there's actually a non-insignifiant overlap between radio and networks(ex: aloha from RF links in Hawaii ended up heavily influencing Ethernet and most of your cable modems use a variation of coding scheme(QAM) that is also widely used in more modern radio protocols).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

viraptor 5y ago

> I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology HAM as in radio operators clubs, sure. But SDR and other adjacent ideas are doing relatively well with younger people. Especially with rtl-sdr providing a really cheap entry point. But the whole official HAM environment and exams? Meh... I made some antennas to catch local device broadcasts and satellite transmissions, but I'm not interested in the classic stuff.

blip54321 5y ago

To me, the encryption things is a big issue. In 1950, transmitting for the world to hear seems reasonable. In 2021, virtually anyone with a few grand could record literally everything transmitted on the 160, 80, 40, 30, and 20 meter bands and archive it for all eternity. Do I want my casual conversations going into some historical record? Probably not. Testing is also a bother. I support testing, mind you, but so much of this is memorizing factoids. "What segment of the 20-meter band is most often used for digital transmissions (avoiding the DX propagation beacons)? (A) 14.000 - 14.050 MHz (B) 14.070 - 14.112 MHz (C) 14.150 - 14.225 MHz (D) 14.275 - 14.350 MHz." At least we finally got rid of Morse Code. And aside from that, the authorized modes of transmission aren't that interesting anymore. I'd enjoy experimenting with things like spread spectrum, or similar types of innovative things. Building an SSB radio in 2021 seems archaic.

ninly 5y ago
I think these things are changing, though I hope the changes come sooner than I suspect they actually will. I know there is ongoing discussion about how to bring rules more in line with modern practice and tech, such as the explosion of interest in digital operation over the past decade or so. I doubt this will reach to authorization of fully encrypted casual comms, though some form of encryption isn't out of the question when you get into the emergency comms piece of amateur radio, which is restricted from passing certain health and welfare information over the essentially "open line" of ham radio.
- blip54321 5y ago
  A lot of this is closely related. Encryption and spread spectrum are sort of tied. Ideally, spread spectrum looks like noise. My carrier isn't a sine wave, but something which looks a lot like a one-time pad. If I'm allowed to experiment with modern transmission, security goes up, at least beyond the level of a casual listener. I also think you could maintain the spirit of ham radio with encryption. It kind of depends on how it's done. If I establish an encrypted connection to a stranger on the waves, and I'm using the connection to peddle commercial goods, if I do it enough times, someone will report me. There's also the issue of security when interacting with anything digital. I don't mind remotely controlling equipment in the clear, perhaps, but I do mind if strangers can commandeer it. Signing is good enough for that, but encryption is better. A lot of things I'd like to do -- if I were experimenting with radio -- I don't want hacked.