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>” We’re becoming the Texas of Europe” In what way? A ton of businesses are moving to Texas for more favorable tax treatment, fewer regulations, and lower cost

>” We’re becoming the Texas of Europe” In what way? A ton of businesses are moving to Texas for more favorable tax treatment, fewer regulations, and lower cost of living. Is that a happening with Poland, too?

selfhoster11 5y ago
At a guess, parent is referring to the Polish government pushing the country in a conservative direction.
Pet_Ant 5y ago
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/salesforce-offers-to-relocate-employees-from-texas-after-abortion-bill.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/salesforce-offers-to-relocat...
ashtonkem 5y ago
You’re right, Poland is probably in worse position than Texas here. Texas at least has the promise of a federal system to reign in its more unpopular legislative instincts, Poland not so much.
- kybernetyk 5y ago
  Well, the EU is a bunch of unelected bureaucrats. Of course national law made by a democratically elected government should trump some unelected and possibly very corrupt bureaucrats far away.
  - p2t2p 5y ago
    I’ll take unelected EU bureaucrat over elected Trump-like something any day.
    - brigandish 5y ago
      Democracy is very inconvenient, especially for those who struggle to persuade others how to live.
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        Good quip, but you’re of course ignoring the issue that democracies can sometimes trample minority rights. This is precisely the issue in this context, with Poland trying to pass anti-LGBTQ laws, and the EU trying to stop them. Democracies are often very convenient for coercing minorities into living the way the majority wants them to live.
        brigandish 5y ago
        I'm not ignoring any such thing, as Churchill famously said "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried". It's inconvenient even for those who are persuasive, but especially for those who are not and for those who are authoritarian - sets that tend to overlap, in my experience. As to Poland, there are no publicised plans for changes to laws that directly affect gays, and they actually have many legal protections that you'll find lacking elsewhere. No same sex marriage or civil partnerships though. If you think stripping away democracy so that Polish gays can marry is worth it then you're entitled to that view, but I'd hazard a guess that they've got long enough memories to avoid that kind of short term thinking and will carry on with the long term effort of persuasion, which is going well[1]. > Meanwhile, support for the legalisation of same-sex partnerships – which are currently not permitted in Poland – now stands at 36%, up six percentage points since 2019 and ten since 2015. Surveys by other pollsters have in recent years found a growing majority now in favour of same-sex partnerships. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/08/06/poles-becoming-more-socially-liberal-with-growing-support-for-lgbt-rights-and-abortion-poll/ https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/08/06/poles-becoming-more-s...
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        > If you think stripping away democracy so that Polish gays can marry is worth it then you're entitled to that view. Ah, a straw man. Please don’t do that, it’s tiresome. I’m not a fan of “stripping away democracy” per the words you tried to put into my mouth. I am however rather clear eyed about the drawbacks of democracies in how they tend to treat minorities. If that reads as being anti democracy to you, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.
  - pavlov 5y ago
    The EU treaties that Poland has signed (along with every other member state) assert that EU law has primacy over national law. If Poland’s government doesn’t like that, it should resign its membership like Britain did.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      I do not look forward to either the portmanteaus, nor the dumb news coverage that Poland leaving the EU would create.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/default_en.htm https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/defaul... Take all the time you need. You'll find lots of specific agreements on wheat subsidies, travel restrictions, etc. But a general claim that EU courts can override Polish courts or EU law to supercede Polish law? It's not there. If you think it is, please go ahead and cite the passage in the treaty. Otherwise please withdraw the claim.
      - pavlov 5y ago
        Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.
        rsj_hn 5y ago
        Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU, whether the member states are living up to their agreement. They do not directly rule on laws or override laws in the national parliaments.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Yeah, that's the ideal. Unfortunately when the local government is worse than a bunch of faraway bureaucrats, it's just hard to justify supporting them.
- p2t2p 5y ago
  > Poland not so much Oh, EU has got ways to screw Poland all right, don’t you worry. Like right now lots of local governments there are reverting certain anti-LGBT laws to get to EU grants or whatever it’s called.
  - ekabod 5y ago
    Who are these local governments? I don't know any.
    - p2t2p 5y ago
      If I Google “Poland lgbt law repeal eu money” the first link is https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041112133/poland-anti-lgbt-resolutions-eu https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041112133/poland-anti-lgbt-r...
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I’m perplexed by the combination of “screw Poland” and the idea that what the EU is doing is making Poland respect the human rights of its own citizens. Are you implying that what the EU is doing here is bad?
    - p2t2p 5y ago
      Thank you for asking instead of just downvoting, it is very valuable to me to be able to see how my message can convey different meaning from what I intended. What I'm saying is that EU has means of causing negative consequence for Poland (and any other member) should they decide to engage into activities that are incompatible with EU values (like violating human rights, breaking trade agreements made by EU, etc).
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        Ah, my interpretation of an idiom created a negative connotation you didn’t intend. C’est la vie. Thanks for the clarification.
- eru 5y ago
  > Texas at least has the promise of a federal system to reign in its more unpopular legislative instincts, Poland not so much. That's very weird? Wouldn't the state legislature, being elected by local people be more likely to be popular with local people than the federal government with is largely elected by people outside of Texas? (Or do you mean 'unpopular' with people outside of Texas?)
  - thetinguy 5y ago
    State politics in the US is not based on how many people vote for or against something in a state. It’s based on how many legislative districts vote for or against something. The difference is important when you think about how legislative districts are drawn.
    - eru 5y ago
      It's not a proportional system, yes. Gerrymandering is a problem, yes. But even a gerrymandered state would arguably have more democratic legitimation within the state, than the federal government, which is still largely voted for by non-Texans and also with somewhat idiosyncratic election rules.
  - yibg 5y ago
    According to a few polls sb8 isn’t popular in Texas. Yet here we are.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I’d recommend you look up the polling on SB8, I think you’d find that enlightening.
viraptor 5y ago
> In what way? Conservative policies including strong stance against any abortion.
ranit 5y ago
> In what way? Anti abortion laws.

selfhoster11 5y ago

At a guess, parent is referring to the Polish government pushing the country in a conservative direction.

Pet_Ant 5y ago

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/salesforce-offers-to-relocate-employees-from-texas-after-abortion-bill.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/salesforce-offers-to-relocat...

ashtonkem 5y ago

You’re right, Poland is probably in worse position than Texas here. Texas at least has the promise of a federal system to reign in its more unpopular legislative instincts, Poland not so much.

kybernetyk 5y ago
Well, the EU is a bunch of unelected bureaucrats. Of course national law made by a democratically elected government should trump some unelected and possibly very corrupt bureaucrats far away.
- p2t2p 5y ago
  I’ll take unelected EU bureaucrat over elected Trump-like something any day.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    Democracy is very inconvenient, especially for those who struggle to persuade others how to live.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Good quip, but you’re of course ignoring the issue that democracies can sometimes trample minority rights. This is precisely the issue in this context, with Poland trying to pass anti-LGBTQ laws, and the EU trying to stop them. Democracies are often very convenient for coercing minorities into living the way the majority wants them to live.
      - brigandish 5y ago
        I'm not ignoring any such thing, as Churchill famously said "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried". It's inconvenient even for those who are persuasive, but especially for those who are not and for those who are authoritarian - sets that tend to overlap, in my experience. As to Poland, there are no publicised plans for changes to laws that directly affect gays, and they actually have many legal protections that you'll find lacking elsewhere. No same sex marriage or civil partnerships though. If you think stripping away democracy so that Polish gays can marry is worth it then you're entitled to that view, but I'd hazard a guess that they've got long enough memories to avoid that kind of short term thinking and will carry on with the long term effort of persuasion, which is going well[1]. > Meanwhile, support for the legalisation of same-sex partnerships – which are currently not permitted in Poland – now stands at 36%, up six percentage points since 2019 and ten since 2015. Surveys by other pollsters have in recent years found a growing majority now in favour of same-sex partnerships. [1] https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/08/06/poles-becoming-more-socially-liberal-with-growing-support-for-lgbt-rights-and-abortion-poll/ https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/08/06/poles-becoming-more-s...
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        > If you think stripping away democracy so that Polish gays can marry is worth it then you're entitled to that view. Ah, a straw man. Please don’t do that, it’s tiresome. I’m not a fan of “stripping away democracy” per the words you tried to put into my mouth. I am however rather clear eyed about the drawbacks of democracies in how they tend to treat minorities. If that reads as being anti democracy to you, then there is no point in continuing this conversation.
- pavlov 5y ago
  The EU treaties that Poland has signed (along with every other member state) assert that EU law has primacy over national law. If Poland’s government doesn’t like that, it should resign its membership like Britain did.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I do not look forward to either the portmanteaus, nor the dumb news coverage that Poland leaving the EU would create.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    You should be able to cite the relevant passage in the accession treaty that Poland signed to support that assertion. You can read the treaty here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/default_en.htm https://www.europarl.europa.eu/enlargement_new/treaty/defaul... Take all the time you need. You'll find lots of specific agreements on wheat subsidies, travel restrictions, etc. But a general claim that EU courts can override Polish courts or EU law to supercede Polish law? It's not there. If you think it is, please go ahead and cite the passage in the treaty. Otherwise please withdraw the claim.
    - pavlov 5y ago
      Poland signed the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007 together with every other member state. That’s the place you should start looking.
      - rsj_hn 5y ago
        Go ahead and cite the passage in the Treaty of Lisbon that says Polish law can be overriden by EU law. I'll wait. Hint: the reason why the structure of the EU was designed so that national parliaments would pass their own versions of laws agreed to in the EU parliament was precisely because it is the national laws that are binding. Similarly the EU courts rule on actions of the member states in the context of the EU, whether the member states are living up to their agreement. They do not directly rule on laws or override laws in the national parliaments.
- bserge 5y ago
  Yeah, that's the ideal. Unfortunately when the local government is worse than a bunch of faraway bureaucrats, it's just hard to justify supporting them.
p2t2p 5y ago
> Poland not so much Oh, EU has got ways to screw Poland all right, don’t you worry. Like right now lots of local governments there are reverting certain anti-LGBT laws to get to EU grants or whatever it’s called.
- ekabod 5y ago
  Who are these local governments? I don't know any.
  - p2t2p 5y ago
    If I Google “Poland lgbt law repeal eu money” the first link is https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041112133/poland-anti-lgbt-resolutions-eu https://www.npr.org/2021/09/28/1041112133/poland-anti-lgbt-r...
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I’m perplexed by the combination of “screw Poland” and the idea that what the EU is doing is making Poland respect the human rights of its own citizens. Are you implying that what the EU is doing here is bad?
  - p2t2p 5y ago
    Thank you for asking instead of just downvoting, it is very valuable to me to be able to see how my message can convey different meaning from what I intended. What I'm saying is that EU has means of causing negative consequence for Poland (and any other member) should they decide to engage into activities that are incompatible with EU values (like violating human rights, breaking trade agreements made by EU, etc).
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      Ah, my interpretation of an idiom created a negative connotation you didn’t intend. C’est la vie. Thanks for the clarification.
eru 5y ago
> Texas at least has the promise of a federal system to reign in its more unpopular legislative instincts, Poland not so much. That's very weird? Wouldn't the state legislature, being elected by local people be more likely to be popular with local people than the federal government with is largely elected by people outside of Texas? (Or do you mean 'unpopular' with people outside of Texas?)
- thetinguy 5y ago
  State politics in the US is not based on how many people vote for or against something in a state. It’s based on how many legislative districts vote for or against something. The difference is important when you think about how legislative districts are drawn.
  - eru 5y ago
    It's not a proportional system, yes. Gerrymandering is a problem, yes. But even a gerrymandered state would arguably have more democratic legitimation within the state, than the federal government, which is still largely voted for by non-Texans and also with somewhat idiosyncratic election rules.
- yibg 5y ago
  According to a few polls sb8 isn’t popular in Texas. Yet here we are.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  I’d recommend you look up the polling on SB8, I think you’d find that enlightening.

viraptor 5y ago

> In what way? Conservative policies including strong stance against any abortion.

ranit 5y ago

> In what way? Anti abortion laws.