6 ms·

This comment is the sort of toxicity that's become commonplace on other social platforms (including Facebook) and that I come to HN to avoid.

cybernautique 5y ago
Highly agree in the means, not the ends. I'm also rabidly anti-FB, to the point it's had a detrimental impact on my social life. It's a cost I knowingly walked into and one I'm happy to bear. Take a look at my public posts: I categoricaly think FB and their employees to be immoral. Shunning is likewise immoral.
- ByteJockey 5y ago
  > Shunning is likewise immoral. So, I have to ask. If shunning is off the table, what's the social punishment for people who do shun?
  - cybernautique 5y ago
    I tell them that I think they're immoral, and then proceed to not call for their shunning.
Ansil849 5y ago
You have it backwards. This is a _response_ to toxicity and people willingly associating and enabling this toxicity.
- NAR8789 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc toxicity tends to come in symbiotic pairs
- unshundang 5y ago
  You are a cunt. How about that for avoiding reality?
lanza 5y ago
Ditto. Issues like Facebook's role in society are nowhere near as simple as reddit and twitter make them out to be. Posts this naive and simplistic being upvoted is kinda ominous for the future of HN.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Moreover it's gross that Jack Dorsey is put on a moral pedestal and Zuckerberg/FB employees are villainized. I'm not saying there's an exact equivalence between Twitter and FB (due to lack of transparency around news feed, Instagram's impact on young teen girls, FB's history of lying) but the disparity in rhetoric and treatment is concerning given that Twitter has undeniably played a role in some of the same societally destabilizing things that FB is involved in, such as extreme echo chambers, abundance and virality of fake news, abundance of bots and scams. I haven't figured out the reason for the out-of-whack disparity yet. Is it because Zuckerberg lacks charisma, because he has Aspergers and people hate the awkwardness, or because FB is the tallest poppy, or because journalists have found a credentialed home on Twitter (blue check mark)?
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > journalists have found a credentialed home on Twitter This. Twitter made a deliberate decision to recruit opinion-formers early on. The face of Faceache is Zuck, with his blank expression and absurd haircut (surely after 20 years, he could find a decent stylist). The face of Twaddle (in the UK) seems to be Stephen Fry - a comic that I used to admire. Now, not so much. I think Twaddle did a better PR job than Faceache from the beginning. I think they're still doing a better job. /me never used either service
- ogma 5y ago
  Yawn, HN is a shit website for terrible people. Who cares?
Oddskar 5y ago
"Ugh, please don't bring morals and ethics into our technical discussions"
- Closi 5y ago
  I think it's the implication that anyone that works for facebook is inherently immoral and exchanging their own ethics for cash, which is not true imo. There are lots of great people doing great things at FB, and if we apply this standard to FB we should also be applying it elsewhere. I'm not entirely sure many major companies have been completely controversy-free... Work for Apple? well you are complicit in sweatshops. Work for Uber? Complicit in sexism and workers being taken advantage of. Work for Spotify? Complicit in artists not getting paid what they should get. I would be interested in hearing where I am allowed to work if we follow this to it's conclusion. (NB: I don't work for facebook or any of these companies...)
  - Oddskar 5y ago
    It's hilarious that developers throw their hands up in the air when any one of the FAANG companies actually get questioned as a moral place to work. "Well I GUESS I CANT WORK ANYWHERE THEN" Really? There is a vast amount of smaller companies that are great employers and where you will enjoy your work just as much.
    - Closi 5y ago
      I’m just saying it’s a standard we don’t apply consistently, even across the tech world, never mind to other industries. Besides, different people have different moral perspectives, and I assume most people at Facebook probably think the company has had a net benefit on society (even if you don’t).
  - leventov 5y ago
    Bingo. That's why working at all these companies is morally problematic. Unless software engineers "vote" by going to work elsewhere, this won't change. Looks for companies with solid ethics, and with founders who have background working at or starting other similar companies. But not coincidentally, the pay at these companies will be at least multiple times less than at Big Tech.

cybernautique 5y ago

Highly agree in the means, not the ends. I'm also rabidly anti-FB, to the point it's had a detrimental impact on my social life. It's a cost I knowingly walked into and one I'm happy to bear. Take a look at my public posts: I categoricaly think FB and their employees to be immoral. Shunning is likewise immoral.

ByteJockey 5y ago
> Shunning is likewise immoral. So, I have to ask. If shunning is off the table, what's the social punishment for people who do shun?
- cybernautique 5y ago
  I tell them that I think they're immoral, and then proceed to not call for their shunning.

Ansil849 5y ago

You have it backwards. This is a _response_ to toxicity and people willingly associating and enabling this toxicity.

NAR8789 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc toxicity tends to come in symbiotic pairs
unshundang 5y ago
You are a cunt. How about that for avoiding reality?

lanza 5y ago

Ditto. Issues like Facebook's role in society are nowhere near as simple as reddit and twitter make them out to be. Posts this naive and simplistic being upvoted is kinda ominous for the future of HN.

fighterpilot 5y ago
Moreover it's gross that Jack Dorsey is put on a moral pedestal and Zuckerberg/FB employees are villainized. I'm not saying there's an exact equivalence between Twitter and FB (due to lack of transparency around news feed, Instagram's impact on young teen girls, FB's history of lying) but the disparity in rhetoric and treatment is concerning given that Twitter has undeniably played a role in some of the same societally destabilizing things that FB is involved in, such as extreme echo chambers, abundance and virality of fake news, abundance of bots and scams. I haven't figured out the reason for the out-of-whack disparity yet. Is it because Zuckerberg lacks charisma, because he has Aspergers and people hate the awkwardness, or because FB is the tallest poppy, or because journalists have found a credentialed home on Twitter (blue check mark)?
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > journalists have found a credentialed home on Twitter This. Twitter made a deliberate decision to recruit opinion-formers early on. The face of Faceache is Zuck, with his blank expression and absurd haircut (surely after 20 years, he could find a decent stylist). The face of Twaddle (in the UK) seems to be Stephen Fry - a comic that I used to admire. Now, not so much. I think Twaddle did a better PR job than Faceache from the beginning. I think they're still doing a better job. /me never used either service
ogma 5y ago
Yawn, HN is a shit website for terrible people. Who cares?

Oddskar 5y ago

"Ugh, please don't bring morals and ethics into our technical discussions"

Closi 5y ago
I think it's the implication that anyone that works for facebook is inherently immoral and exchanging their own ethics for cash, which is not true imo. There are lots of great people doing great things at FB, and if we apply this standard to FB we should also be applying it elsewhere. I'm not entirely sure many major companies have been completely controversy-free... Work for Apple? well you are complicit in sweatshops. Work for Uber? Complicit in sexism and workers being taken advantage of. Work for Spotify? Complicit in artists not getting paid what they should get. I would be interested in hearing where I am allowed to work if we follow this to it's conclusion. (NB: I don't work for facebook or any of these companies...)
- Oddskar 5y ago
  It's hilarious that developers throw their hands up in the air when any one of the FAANG companies actually get questioned as a moral place to work. "Well I GUESS I CANT WORK ANYWHERE THEN" Really? There is a vast amount of smaller companies that are great employers and where you will enjoy your work just as much.
  - Closi 5y ago
    I’m just saying it’s a standard we don’t apply consistently, even across the tech world, never mind to other industries. Besides, different people have different moral perspectives, and I assume most people at Facebook probably think the company has had a net benefit on society (even if you don’t).
- leventov 5y ago
  Bingo. That's why working at all these companies is morally problematic. Unless software engineers "vote" by going to work elsewhere, this won't change. Looks for companies with solid ethics, and with founders who have background working at or starting other similar companies. But not coincidentally, the pay at these companies will be at least multiple times less than at Big Tech.