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Disclaimer: Facebook employee. This is a perfectly valid opinion to make, but I think everyone doing so should disclose where they work. Additionally, I would

Disclaimer: Facebook employee. This is a perfectly valid opinion to make, but I think everyone doing so should disclose where they work. Additionally, I would hope they apply the same scrutiny to all companies that are harmful or don’t provide value; for me, that would include (non-exhaustive list): tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, high-frequency trading, gambling, and any company that is currently not or does not have an actionable plan to become carbon neutral, and that’s just off the top of my head. Or we could just let people (and by extension advertisers) decide for themselves.

ummonk 5y ago
Of those companies, the only one that's a big employer of HN audiences would be HFT companies, which are more in the space of "don't provide value" than "harmful". Arguably most social media is actively harmful.
Ansil849 5y ago
I definitely agree with your point that Facebook is not a singular problematic entity and not even in a singular problematic industry, it's just the one this thread is about. > Or we could just let people (and by extension advertisers) decide for themselves. That's the idea of shunning though. People can make their own decisions to work wherever they please, and in response to these choices other people can likewise decide to disassociate with them.
- laweijfmvo 5y ago
  Fair enough, and I accept the shunning as a legitimate action :) I’m also against the action taken against the extension developer, both in principle and as someone who unfollowed everyone, one at a time. p.s. next time you reply to a FB employee please begin your message with un-shun and end it with re-shun
  - dboreham 5y ago
    \begin{un-shun} \end{un-shun}
    - artwr 5y ago
      #latexforlife
  - unshundang 5y ago
    Or I can just call you a cunt and wish the rape of your family while you are here trying to be cheeky when you are destroying the world.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > That's the idea of _shunning_ though. People can make their own decisions to work wherever they please, and in response to these choices other people can likewise decide to disassociate with them. Immoral and unethical practice, unfortunately a lot of people here today fail to realize that, just because they allegedly are "in the right" camp or have the "right politics", it doesn't mean they are the right to behave like garbage toward others.
Nextgrid 5y ago
A lot of the industries you mention don't try their hardest to get my attention and monopolize online social discourse. Facebook does. Alcohol bottles, cigarettes, sodas, burgers and high-frequency traders don't follow me around everywhere to get me to drink them. Facebook does. Alcohol bottles don't monopolize socializing and drinking; I can still go to the bar with alcohol-drinking friends even though I would only order a soft drink. Facebook tries to, there's no way I can communicate with Facebook users unless I am also on Facebook and accept the ToS and "privacy" policy.
- mmastrac 5y ago
  One thing to consider: we clamped down on a lot of those industries when we determined the hard was great and that's why you might not see them in your life as much.
- tourist2d 5y ago
  How is Facebook monopolising social discourse? Have you not heard of Reddit, Twitter or Instagram? > A lot of the industries you mention don't try their hardest to get my attention Huh? You don't think those industries run any advertising campaigns? > there's no way I can communicate with Facebook users unless I am also on Facebook and accept the ToS and "privacy" policy. This is the strangest complaint I've ever read. Are you suggesting anonymous people are able to message Facebook users without agreeing to any terms of service? I definitely can't see anything going wrong with that. Why not ask them to message you on one of the 1000 other messaging apps? No one's forcing you to sign up to Facebook, it just sounds like it's being successful at providing an easy way to message between friends.
  - modo_mario 5y ago
    >or Instagram That one was bought by facebook ages ago.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > How is Facebook monopolising social discourse? Have you not heard of Reddit, Twitter or Instagram? [emphasis mine] Well.... Don't you see the problem in your own text? Yes, Reddit & Twitter exist but they are different. You wouldn't typically use those to keep in touch with family for example. > You don't think those industries run any advertising campaigns? Most of these industries' advertising is limited to places where advertising is accepted and relevant. I don't mind seeing branded glasses/beer taps/etc at the pub, or Coca Cola branding in fast foods. I do mind seeing these in my communication tools, even more so when a monopoly essentially forces me to use said tools. > This is the strangest complaint I've ever read. Are you suggesting anonymous people are able to message Facebook users without agreeing to any terms of service? I can call or text someone in America right now without accepting AT&T's terms of service. I can email someone on Gmail right now without accepting Google's ToS. Why is it so controversial?
cybernautique 5y ago
I've railed against FB and employees in previous threads, but this is already a negative thread. Thank you for engaging openly and honestly. I find your perspective refreshing, and shockingly similar to my own. I'm a self-employed contractor, for reference.
aserdf 5y ago
the banality of evil on display?
fighterpilot 5y ago
"high frequency trading" It's wrong if you think HFT belongs in a category like tobacco. HFT has significantly reduced rents collected by market makers and significantly reduced bid offer spreads, and most importantly it doesn't kill people and doesn't destabilize democracies. They've automated market makers and brought scale economies and the efficiency of technology to the game. It's a great thing on net. The race to the bottom incentive for speed leads to some waste but that pales in comparison to the benefits.
ogma 5y ago
> I would hope they apply the same scrutiny to all companies that are harmful or don’t provide value; for me, that would include (non-exhaustive list): tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, high-frequency trading, gambling We do, you're all subhuman filth.
zestyping 5y ago
I honestly would really like to know what you think and feel about this. I'm so curious because your perspective seems like it must be so different from mine, so I'd like to understand. How serious do you think the problem really is? How much of it do you think Facebook is responsible for? What would you do if you were in charge?
davidgerard 5y ago
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism
nix23 5y ago
>tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, gambling They all provide a value...it's called FUN, too much Fun is never good but a little bit is. Your comparison lacks the basic understanding of having a good time.

ummonk 5y ago

Of those companies, the only one that's a big employer of HN audiences would be HFT companies, which are more in the space of "don't provide value" than "harmful". Arguably most social media is actively harmful.

Ansil849 5y ago

I definitely agree with your point that Facebook is not a singular problematic entity and not even in a singular problematic industry, it's just the one this thread is about. > Or we could just let people (and by extension advertisers) decide for themselves. That's the idea of shunning though. People can make their own decisions to work wherever they please, and in response to these choices other people can likewise decide to disassociate with them.

laweijfmvo 5y ago
Fair enough, and I accept the shunning as a legitimate action :) I’m also against the action taken against the extension developer, both in principle and as someone who unfollowed everyone, one at a time. p.s. next time you reply to a FB employee please begin your message with un-shun and end it with re-shun
- dboreham 5y ago
  \begin{un-shun} \end{un-shun}
  - artwr 5y ago
    #latexforlife
- unshundang 5y ago
  Or I can just call you a cunt and wish the rape of your family while you are here trying to be cheeky when you are destroying the world.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> That's the idea of _shunning_ though. People can make their own decisions to work wherever they please, and in response to these choices other people can likewise decide to disassociate with them. Immoral and unethical practice, unfortunately a lot of people here today fail to realize that, just because they allegedly are "in the right" camp or have the "right politics", it doesn't mean they are the right to behave like garbage toward others.

Nextgrid 5y ago

A lot of the industries you mention don't try their hardest to get my attention and monopolize online social discourse. Facebook does. Alcohol bottles, cigarettes, sodas, burgers and high-frequency traders don't follow me around everywhere to get me to drink them. Facebook does. Alcohol bottles don't monopolize socializing and drinking; I can still go to the bar with alcohol-drinking friends even though I would only order a soft drink. Facebook tries to, there's no way I can communicate with Facebook users unless I am also on Facebook and accept the ToS and "privacy" policy.

mmastrac 5y ago
One thing to consider: we clamped down on a lot of those industries when we determined the hard was great and that's why you might not see them in your life as much.
tourist2d 5y ago
How is Facebook monopolising social discourse? Have you not heard of Reddit, Twitter or Instagram? > A lot of the industries you mention don't try their hardest to get my attention Huh? You don't think those industries run any advertising campaigns? > there's no way I can communicate with Facebook users unless I am also on Facebook and accept the ToS and "privacy" policy. This is the strangest complaint I've ever read. Are you suggesting anonymous people are able to message Facebook users without agreeing to any terms of service? I definitely can't see anything going wrong with that. Why not ask them to message you on one of the 1000 other messaging apps? No one's forcing you to sign up to Facebook, it just sounds like it's being successful at providing an easy way to message between friends.
- modo_mario 5y ago
  >or Instagram That one was bought by facebook ages ago.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > How is Facebook monopolising social discourse? Have you not heard of Reddit, Twitter or Instagram? [emphasis mine] Well.... Don't you see the problem in your own text? Yes, Reddit & Twitter exist but they are different. You wouldn't typically use those to keep in touch with family for example. > You don't think those industries run any advertising campaigns? Most of these industries' advertising is limited to places where advertising is accepted and relevant. I don't mind seeing branded glasses/beer taps/etc at the pub, or Coca Cola branding in fast foods. I do mind seeing these in my communication tools, even more so when a monopoly essentially forces me to use said tools. > This is the strangest complaint I've ever read. Are you suggesting anonymous people are able to message Facebook users without agreeing to any terms of service? I can call or text someone in America right now without accepting AT&T's terms of service. I can email someone on Gmail right now without accepting Google's ToS. Why is it so controversial?

cybernautique 5y ago

I've railed against FB and employees in previous threads, but this is already a negative thread. Thank you for engaging openly and honestly. I find your perspective refreshing, and shockingly similar to my own. I'm a self-employed contractor, for reference.

aserdf 5y ago

the banality of evil on display?

fighterpilot 5y ago

"high frequency trading" It's wrong if you think HFT belongs in a category like tobacco. HFT has significantly reduced rents collected by market makers and significantly reduced bid offer spreads, and most importantly it doesn't kill people and doesn't destabilize democracies. They've automated market makers and brought scale economies and the efficiency of technology to the game. It's a great thing on net. The race to the bottom incentive for speed leads to some waste but that pales in comparison to the benefits.

ogma 5y ago

> I would hope they apply the same scrutiny to all companies that are harmful or don’t provide value; for me, that would include (non-exhaustive list): tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, high-frequency trading, gambling We do, you're all subhuman filth.

zestyping 5y ago

I honestly would really like to know what you think and feel about this. I'm so curious because your perspective seems like it must be so different from mine, so I'd like to understand. How serious do you think the problem really is? How much of it do you think Facebook is responsible for? What would you do if you were in charge?

davidgerard 5y ago

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Whataboutism

nix23 5y ago

>tobacco, alcohol, soda, fast food, junk food, gambling They all provide a value...it's called FUN, too much Fun is never good but a little bit is. Your comparison lacks the basic understanding of having a good time.