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What country are you in that disallowed being in public without a vaccine? That didn't happen anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. As for the rest, again, man

What country are you in that disallowed being in public without a vaccine? That didn't happen anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. As for the rest, again, mandating vaccination is something the US has been doing over and over since the year 1777. This is nothing new. The parent claimed that this vaccine mandate was specifically paired with the vaccine still being in an experimental state, which to my knowledge is not the case.

rajin444 5y ago
I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. Especially when the definition was changed in the past year.
- margalabargala 5y ago
  > I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. That's a fair point, I agree. > Especially when the definition was changed in the past year. Could you elaborate on this part? I went ahead and checked the dictionary definition: > A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease. Which tracks with what I remember from my molecular bio degree ten years ago.
  - grillvogel 5y ago
    the CDC recently changed their definition of vaccine from (paraphrasing) "something that provides immunity to disease" to "something that provides protection from a disease" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25411126...
  - rajin444 5y ago
    https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=50886 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=50886 It wasn’t just here - the CDC and potentially others (I haven’t looked that hard) changed their definitions as well. I’ve got no issue with making terms more correct, but I think one could make the argument that the covid vaccine is more similar to a flu shot than the polio vaccine w.r.t public perception.
    - margalabargala 5y ago
      Hmm, interesting. I don't object to the new definition- the old one explicitly calling out cowpox feels outdated as our medical technology has marched on. You make a very good point though, depending on what definition of "vaccine" one used prior to 2020 the mRNA vaccines might not fall under it. And changing the meaning of the word doesn't magically change the properties of the things it refers to.
bjt2n3904 5y ago
Mandates are totally not happening! But if they are, it's not in the US. And if it is in the US, there's legal precedent, and totally valid.
jjtheblunt 5y ago
what vaccine was out in 1777? or do you mean 1776 + 1?
- margalabargala 5y ago
  George Washington mandated the smallpox vaccine for his troops in 1777: https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    unlike comparison Smallpox had a mortality varying from 33% to 17% according to what I read last [1] Covid has a mortality rate of < 2% in the US mainly driven by the very old, and severe co-mordibities (diabetic+obese, immunocompromised, etc) that are in many cases annually killed off by influenza & pneumonia. That is why all-cause mortality hasn't shifted that much at the overall population level in the US. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/clinicians/clinical-disease.html https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/clinicians/clinical-disease.htm...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Covid mortality is less than 0.1% for ages younger than 55 years old, and less than 0.0005% for ages younger than 14. https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1446202920106668034 https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1446202920106668034
      - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
        Agree completely That is why Do No Harm is so pertinent to the discussion of vaccinate or do nothing when it comes to the very young.
angelzen 5y ago
North America. We are not yet at federally mandated vaccine or else, but there is a visible trend to require vaccine mandates in more and more settings: work, travel, shopping. So far it is localized in a handful of spots. Absent strong pushback it is possible the trend will spread like fire. Los Angeles: L.A. to require COVID vaccine proof for indoor restaurants, gyms, malls Canada: Traveling in Canada by plane or train? You'll need to show proof of vaccination IBM/RedHat: Big Blue will require employees in the U.S. to get fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by Dec. 8 while Red Hat requires proof of full vaccination by Nov. 29. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-poised-to-enact-one-of-nations-strictest-covid-vaccine-mandates https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-poised-to-enact-one-of-... https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/10/06/canada-require-covid-vaccine-travel-starting-oct-30/6022048001 https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/10/0... https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/ibm-red-hat-issue-new-covid-19-vaccine-mandates https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/ibm-red-hat-issue-new-covid-1...
angelzen 5y ago
Sorry for the double reply, it just came to my attention a story from Lithuania. First EU country with a strict implementation of the CovidPass. Extreme ostracization of a population segment is rather new, if we are not to count some notorious pre WW2 instances. https://twitter.com/gluboco/status/1441691330825031680 https://twitter.com/gluboco/status/1441691330825031680

rajin444 5y ago

I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. Especially when the definition was changed in the past year.

margalabargala 5y ago
> I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. That's a fair point, I agree. > Especially when the definition was changed in the past year. Could you elaborate on this part? I went ahead and checked the dictionary definition: > A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease. Which tracks with what I remember from my molecular bio degree ten years ago.
- grillvogel 5y ago
  the CDC recently changed their definition of vaccine from (paraphrasing) "something that provides immunity to disease" to "something that provides protection from a disease" https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25411126...
- rajin444 5y ago
  https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=50886 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=50886 It wasn’t just here - the CDC and potentially others (I haven’t looked that hard) changed their definitions as well. I’ve got no issue with making terms more correct, but I think one could make the argument that the covid vaccine is more similar to a flu shot than the polio vaccine w.r.t public perception.
  - margalabargala 5y ago
    Hmm, interesting. I don't object to the new definition- the old one explicitly calling out cowpox feels outdated as our medical technology has marched on. You make a very good point though, depending on what definition of "vaccine" one used prior to 2020 the mRNA vaccines might not fall under it. And changing the meaning of the word doesn't magically change the properties of the things it refers to.

bjt2n3904 5y ago

Mandates are totally not happening! But if they are, it's not in the US. And if it is in the US, there's legal precedent, and totally valid.

jjtheblunt 5y ago

what vaccine was out in 1777? or do you mean 1776 + 1?

margalabargala 5y ago
George Washington mandated the smallpox vaccine for his troops in 1777: https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  unlike comparison Smallpox had a mortality varying from 33% to 17% according to what I read last [1] Covid has a mortality rate of < 2% in the US mainly driven by the very old, and severe co-mordibities (diabetic+obese, immunocompromised, etc) that are in many cases annually killed off by influenza & pneumonia. That is why all-cause mortality hasn't shifted that much at the overall population level in the US. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/clinicians/clinical-disease.html https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/clinicians/clinical-disease.htm...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Covid mortality is less than 0.1% for ages younger than 55 years old, and less than 0.0005% for ages younger than 14. https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1446202920106668034 https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1446202920106668034
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      Agree completely That is why Do No Harm is so pertinent to the discussion of vaccinate or do nothing when it comes to the very young.

angelzen 5y ago

North America. We are not yet at federally mandated vaccine or else, but there is a visible trend to require vaccine mandates in more and more settings: work, travel, shopping. So far it is localized in a handful of spots. Absent strong pushback it is possible the trend will spread like fire. Los Angeles: L.A. to require COVID vaccine proof for indoor restaurants, gyms, malls Canada: Traveling in Canada by plane or train? You'll need to show proof of vaccination IBM/RedHat: Big Blue will require employees in the U.S. to get fully vaccinated against COVID-19 by Dec. 8 while Red Hat requires proof of full vaccination by Nov. 29. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-poised-to-enact-one-of-nations-strictest-covid-vaccine-mandates https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-poised-to-enact-one-of-... https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/10/06/canada-require-covid-vaccine-travel-starting-oct-30/6022048001 https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/10/0... https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/ibm-red-hat-issue-new-covid-19-vaccine-mandates https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/ibm-red-hat-issue-new-covid-1...

angelzen 5y ago

Sorry for the double reply, it just came to my attention a story from Lithuania. First EU country with a strict implementation of the CovidPass. Extreme ostracization of a population segment is rather new, if we are not to count some notorious pre WW2 instances. https://twitter.com/gluboco/status/1441691330825031680 https://twitter.com/gluboco/status/1441691330825031680