7 ms·

I've been a ham for over fifty years. The problem with a lack of young hams starts at the local level. When I took my novice test at 14 the guy who was giving

by rmason 5y ago

I've been a ham for over fifty years. The problem with a lack of young hams starts at the local level. When I took my novice test at 14 the guy who was giving it became my lifelong friend or in ham speak my Elmer. I started a high school club (still going strong) and all its members were friends with this guy. He strongly encouraged me to join the local club and I did. Not only did I meet other teenage hams but I made friends with older hams who taught me stuff and were happy to be supportive. Contrast that with today, the club is still around but its moribund. I reached out when they were having problems keeping their repeater on the local university tower. I was told my help wasn't wanted. I reached out again when the local marker space wanted to do a joint event. I'm a life member of the group but I was rebuffed. I can only imagine the 14 year old me taking one look at this cliquish group of older guys and being discouraged about the hobby. I've run a programming group for twenty years. Sometimes the members get on me for having introductory type meetings. But I'm always reaching out to the greater community and trying to get new members. That's how you grow, if you don't do it you die. There's plenty in the ham radio hobby to attract young people, but if the local community turns them off they quickly chose to do something else.

tlrobinson 5y ago
This is my experience too. I'm a relatively young ham, and have found older hams have no interest in engaging with anyone other than their buddies. It's bizarre and sad.
vegetablepotpie 5y ago
At 20 I was interested in HAM radio. I went to a meeting at my university. Meetings were entirely five retired engineers talking the whole time, that was boring. There was one other student, who was the president. When I asked questions about radio and RF, they recommended I go to the library to look for books. I felt that I really didn’t need to spend an hour of my time to have them tell me that. I went to one other meeting, but I had school and work taking up my time and realized attending was not worth my time. I hope the community has improved since then, because it was not inviting to young people when I wanted to get involved.
- AlbertCory 5y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about you & GP. My experience was long, long ago, but I vividly remember everyone being super-supportive.
- znpy 5y ago
  I had a similar experience. The local ham radio group was basically a boomers club, and somebody that was young in the 80s that stuck around.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Same experience here. I thought about getting into it about 7-8 years ago, but the local group was a clique of 70 year old retirees who all knew each other, complaining about their taxes and social security, and sharing their -- unfortunately stereotypical -- uh, political views that would be considered NSFW at most offices. Not exactly welcoming.
vvanders 5y ago
Yup, there's also a big problem with gatekeeping and what's "true" ham radio. I wish it was different since you can do things with ham radio that are not possible without a license but then I look at the state of something like APRS that is still stuck in the '80s and it's depressing. The M17 project may change that and FT8 is starting to make inroads but I feel like the attitude you mention above keeps out people who would be taking it to new places and domains.
Cullinet 5y ago
I think this is something to do with the generational reaffirmation of youth since the WWII kicked off a later 20th century imbalance of the proportion of young people in the world. Now that the number of youngsters is simply twice or more than before and the chances of meeting up with and engaging with seniors diminished by other factors such as wealth creating retirement conurbations and the dissolution of multi generational households, young people just aren't comfortable with older folk any more. I have noticed this anecdotally of course personally rather pointedly immediately after I grew a beard that happens to be white despite my age being a tiny 50 something. The sudden and unmistakable difference in the way I experienced society has been revealing and at times even rather worrying.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Perhaps it's a matter of what area you live in. Since I've grown a gray beard, I've found almost everyone, including younger people, treat me with a level of deference and respect that they didn't before.
- ngcc_hk 5y ago
  Multi generation household or live close by has been a thing even in city. At least in Uk I observed. The current Fb being old guy media precisely lived in this space. How many kids solely on fb for their peers. That image is right.
treeman79 5y ago
Was a ham and active at 20. Me and a few friends did lots of events. Nothing but really old people. Tried to get into it 20 years later. I was Still the youngest person by 20-30 years. At this rate I figure in 25 years I will get into it again.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
I hear about this a lot and am pretty sure it is true in many places but it's not that way everywhere. Just last night the mostly old folks on the local net were excited that someone was joining through some sort of gateway for digital modes. But I certainly know the gatekeeper types you're referring too and they exist in many hobbies that grew into popularity during earlier eras. I've heard in some places the younger crowd has formed their own clubs that focus more on digital modes, which is one way around the gatekeepers, but still sad because the hobby is at its heart about sharing experience, which they have decades of.
emacsen 5y ago
My grandfather was a HAM radio operator (KB2SX) and ran at least one ham radio group. My experience with him was that he'd go on nightly, or semi-nightly, and meet virtually with other HAM radio operators. He wanted me to take a HAM test, but by the time I was at an age that would have been appropriate, there were other technologies emerging such as BBSes, online service providers (Compuserv, Prodigy and AOL), and then later the Internet. These technologies were so exciting to me, and I am sure that had they existed when my grandfather had started out, he would have used them instead of HAM radio, as for him it was about the socializing and connection. For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology, but not much else. One can't even transmit encrypted data across it legally, limiting even basic data transmission technology. This isn't so say that there isn't a part of me that's nostalgic for sitting on my grandfather's lap watching him tune the dials and adjust the glowing meters, but even for someone as middle aged as me, HAM radio was more of a nostalgia technology. You're also right about the younger folks finding many HAM operators to be curmudgeony. They're protective and can be somewhat elitist, with a high degree of friction (time, energy and cost) to even begin in the hobby, a smart kid who wants to tinker can find more welcoming hobbies. Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! Many kids today have grown up without a landline in their home.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology Under 43 here as well as someone involved in the retro scene. HAM stuff was never a retro for me, however I have consider looking into it when I developed an interest in RF based computer networks (my interest originated with modern tech). As someone who undereducated as fuck it seems like a decent way to build some of the base knowledge that I don’t have. I just haven’t got around to looking into it much. > Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. I actually tried to get a landline. Only thing available was a a DOCSIS modem for encapsulating VoIP traffic.
  - emacsen 5y ago
    I'm not under 43, I'm 43. :) It also may be that when I 14-18 was a transformational time for the technology of computer communication. It was exciting. Maybe that excitement isn't there for people who are "always online". > heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it?
ChuckMcM 5y ago
There is an unreasonably large number of bigoted, racist, and generally rude "old guy" hams. I've been wondering about this for a while. I got my novice license when the community was as you describe (helpful, welcoming of everyone) and then got my extra class in the 'modern' age. I have been told that SDRs are not "real" radios (as an example). I get the people who feel inadequate because technology has moved quickly and they don't understand it, but the rage they have at people who do is really quite surprising to me. One theory I have is that these curmudgeons have 'run out' people who just got tired of hearing them on the air. That said, in probably 20 years or so it is going to be great because they are all going to be dead and hopefully they will have taken their attitude with them.
- na85 5y ago
  Not sure why you are being downvoted. Truth hurts, I guess.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I got my son interested in short wave by first exposing him to North Korea’s English broadcast. Now he DX’s for all kinds of stuff on web SDRs. It’s a start.
tdeck 5y ago
I'm a newish ham and got my license a couple of years ago. One thing that may not be obvious to long-time hams is how alienating the testing experience can be. Many of us learn online or through printed resources, and our first time meeting the local club is test day. The test process leaves a lot to be desired. For example, my local area only has exams once per quarter. The time frame is 9 AM - noon on a weekend day, theoretically you can start any time. So I show up at 10 and quickly fill out the 30 question multiple choice technician exam. No problems so far! But then I have to sit and wait over an hour for 3 different examiners to get to my exam and grade it one after the other. I don't know why this rule about grading in triplicate exists, but it meant that despite finishing my exam maybe 90 minutes before the session ended, I was told there wouldn't be enough time for me to take the general exam and get it graded that day. Meaning I had to get up at 8 AM and travel to a neighboring city on the next exam date to get my general license. The whole thing just feels unnecessarily bureaucratic and alienating, particularly for a hobby. It was less of a hassle last time I went to the DMV.
- irrational 5y ago
  I got my license during the pandemic, the class and testing were all done remotely. I've never physically met anyone else that has a license (to the best of my knowledge - maybe I walked by someone in a store).
- rmason 5y ago
  I'm from the generation that had to go to the local FCC office to advance from novice. You copied code in a glass room with echo's that made things challenging. The FCC guys always seemed gruff and non-smiling like they didn't particularly enjoy the task. Some hams had to travel hundreds of miles to reach a local FCC office. I would imagine the volunteer examiner program would be much easier. But it sounds like it could be made much better. However to an extent the FCC is still driving the rules. Governments are by their very nature bureaucratic.
- ninly 5y ago
  It's unfortunate that that was your experience. The VE experience does vary a lot from one region or group to another. I know there are VE groups that absolutely do better than this even with the conventional paper approach, make it a priority to do things efficiently, and make sure people can sit for all the exams they need/want during any given session. Also, for what it's worth, the entire study and exam process has been undergoing a lot of transformation, especially in response to the pandemic. I expect to see changes in this process, including expansion of online test opportunities, in coming years.
jhoechtl 5y ago
I think you are searching for explanations in the social realm while the truth is all to obvious. Ham used to be about making connections with the guy sitting on the other end of the globe. That's a 100 times solved problem, much more reliably and with much less effort than ham could ever provide. The second thing is ham is about making your own stuff. An AM/FM rig? With SSB? Your own amplifier? That used to be cool long ago when equipment was expensive. Today the equipment is all DSP, software defined. Little chance to lay your hands on, unless you come up with a new SDR like the chinese ATS25 or a malachite rival. Ham is not dead, it just has a much reduced user base because of how things turned out to be. Edited typos
- alibarber 5y ago
  Hmm - I got into Ham radio nearly 20 years ago as a teenager who loved making electronics. I couldn’t afford to buy the expensive things at the time, now I could probably buy a high-end high power rig and not really feel any financial hit. But I haven’t because it’s still cool to make all those things, and I’m still struggling to get them to work, but am learning and feeling so amazingly satisfied when they do. Also, you sort of can make all kinds of amazing SDR things yourself with even modest microcontrollers and DDS ICs. It’s just a hobby like any other, people still spend massive amounts of money and time on classic cars - they’ll never compete with or better a new Hyundai or something to get from A to B, but that’s missing the point.

by rmason 5y ago

tlrobinson 5y ago

This is my experience too. I'm a relatively young ham, and have found older hams have no interest in engaging with anyone other than their buddies. It's bizarre and sad.

vegetablepotpie 5y ago

At 20 I was interested in HAM radio. I went to a meeting at my university. Meetings were entirely five retired engineers talking the whole time, that was boring. There was one other student, who was the president. When I asked questions about radio and RF, they recommended I go to the library to look for books. I felt that I really didn’t need to spend an hour of my time to have them tell me that. I went to one other meeting, but I had school and work taking up my time and realized attending was not worth my time. I hope the community has improved since then, because it was not inviting to young people when I wanted to get involved.

AlbertCory 5y ago
I'm sorry to hear about you & GP. My experience was long, long ago, but I vividly remember everyone being super-supportive.
znpy 5y ago
I had a similar experience. The local ham radio group was basically a boomers club, and somebody that was young in the 80s that stuck around.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Same experience here. I thought about getting into it about 7-8 years ago, but the local group was a clique of 70 year old retirees who all knew each other, complaining about their taxes and social security, and sharing their -- unfortunately stereotypical -- uh, political views that would be considered NSFW at most offices. Not exactly welcoming.

vvanders 5y ago

Yup, there's also a big problem with gatekeeping and what's "true" ham radio. I wish it was different since you can do things with ham radio that are not possible without a license but then I look at the state of something like APRS that is still stuck in the '80s and it's depressing. The M17 project may change that and FT8 is starting to make inroads but I feel like the attitude you mention above keeps out people who would be taking it to new places and domains.

Cullinet 5y ago

I think this is something to do with the generational reaffirmation of youth since the WWII kicked off a later 20th century imbalance of the proportion of young people in the world. Now that the number of youngsters is simply twice or more than before and the chances of meeting up with and engaging with seniors diminished by other factors such as wealth creating retirement conurbations and the dissolution of multi generational households, young people just aren't comfortable with older folk any more. I have noticed this anecdotally of course personally rather pointedly immediately after I grew a beard that happens to be white despite my age being a tiny 50 something. The sudden and unmistakable difference in the way I experienced society has been revealing and at times even rather worrying.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Perhaps it's a matter of what area you live in. Since I've grown a gray beard, I've found almost everyone, including younger people, treat me with a level of deference and respect that they didn't before.
ngcc_hk 5y ago
Multi generation household or live close by has been a thing even in city. At least in Uk I observed. The current Fb being old guy media precisely lived in this space. How many kids solely on fb for their peers. That image is right.

treeman79 5y ago

Was a ham and active at 20. Me and a few friends did lots of events. Nothing but really old people. Tried to get into it 20 years later. I was Still the youngest person by 20-30 years. At this rate I figure in 25 years I will get into it again.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

I hear about this a lot and am pretty sure it is true in many places but it's not that way everywhere. Just last night the mostly old folks on the local net were excited that someone was joining through some sort of gateway for digital modes. But I certainly know the gatekeeper types you're referring too and they exist in many hobbies that grew into popularity during earlier eras. I've heard in some places the younger crowd has formed their own clubs that focus more on digital modes, which is one way around the gatekeepers, but still sad because the hobby is at its heart about sharing experience, which they have decades of.

emacsen 5y ago

My grandfather was a HAM radio operator (KB2SX) and ran at least one ham radio group. My experience with him was that he'd go on nightly, or semi-nightly, and meet virtually with other HAM radio operators. He wanted me to take a HAM test, but by the time I was at an age that would have been appropriate, there were other technologies emerging such as BBSes, online service providers (Compuserv, Prodigy and AOL), and then later the Internet. These technologies were so exciting to me, and I am sure that had they existed when my grandfather had started out, he would have used them instead of HAM radio, as for him it was about the socializing and connection. For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology, but not much else. One can't even transmit encrypted data across it legally, limiting even basic data transmission technology. This isn't so say that there isn't a part of me that's nostalgic for sitting on my grandfather's lap watching him tune the dials and adjust the glowing meters, but even for someone as middle aged as me, HAM radio was more of a nostalgia technology. You're also right about the younger folks finding many HAM operators to be curmudgeony. They're protective and can be somewhat elitist, with a high degree of friction (time, energy and cost) to even begin in the hobby, a smart kid who wants to tinker can find more welcoming hobbies. Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! Many kids today have grown up without a landline in their home.

the_only_law 5y ago
> For those younger than me (43), I imagine that HAM radio has an appeal as a retro technology Under 43 here as well as someone involved in the retro scene. HAM stuff was never a retro for me, however I have consider looking into it when I developed an interest in RF based computer networks (my interest originated with modern tech). As someone who undereducated as fuck it seems like a decent way to build some of the base knowledge that I don’t have. I just haven’t got around to looking into it much. > Heck... telephony technologies are now considered retro! heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. I actually tried to get a landline. Only thing available was a a DOCSIS modem for encapsulating VoIP traffic.
- emacsen 5y ago
  I'm not under 43, I'm 43. :) It also may be that when I 14-18 was a transformational time for the technology of computer communication. It was exciting. Maybe that excitement isn't there for people who are "always online". > heh my most recent retro deep dive has been into ISDN. Do you consider ISDN separate from telephony or part of it?

ChuckMcM 5y ago

There is an unreasonably large number of bigoted, racist, and generally rude "old guy" hams. I've been wondering about this for a while. I got my novice license when the community was as you describe (helpful, welcoming of everyone) and then got my extra class in the 'modern' age. I have been told that SDRs are not "real" radios (as an example). I get the people who feel inadequate because technology has moved quickly and they don't understand it, but the rage they have at people who do is really quite surprising to me. One theory I have is that these curmudgeons have 'run out' people who just got tired of hearing them on the air. That said, in probably 20 years or so it is going to be great because they are all going to be dead and hopefully they will have taken their attitude with them.

na85 5y ago
Not sure why you are being downvoted. Truth hurts, I guess.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

I got my son interested in short wave by first exposing him to North Korea’s English broadcast. Now he DX’s for all kinds of stuff on web SDRs. It’s a start.

tdeck 5y ago

I'm a newish ham and got my license a couple of years ago. One thing that may not be obvious to long-time hams is how alienating the testing experience can be. Many of us learn online or through printed resources, and our first time meeting the local club is test day. The test process leaves a lot to be desired. For example, my local area only has exams once per quarter. The time frame is 9 AM - noon on a weekend day, theoretically you can start any time. So I show up at 10 and quickly fill out the 30 question multiple choice technician exam. No problems so far! But then I have to sit and wait over an hour for 3 different examiners to get to my exam and grade it one after the other. I don't know why this rule about grading in triplicate exists, but it meant that despite finishing my exam maybe 90 minutes before the session ended, I was told there wouldn't be enough time for me to take the general exam and get it graded that day. Meaning I had to get up at 8 AM and travel to a neighboring city on the next exam date to get my general license. The whole thing just feels unnecessarily bureaucratic and alienating, particularly for a hobby. It was less of a hassle last time I went to the DMV.

irrational 5y ago
I got my license during the pandemic, the class and testing were all done remotely. I've never physically met anyone else that has a license (to the best of my knowledge - maybe I walked by someone in a store).
rmason 5y ago
I'm from the generation that had to go to the local FCC office to advance from novice. You copied code in a glass room with echo's that made things challenging. The FCC guys always seemed gruff and non-smiling like they didn't particularly enjoy the task. Some hams had to travel hundreds of miles to reach a local FCC office. I would imagine the volunteer examiner program would be much easier. But it sounds like it could be made much better. However to an extent the FCC is still driving the rules. Governments are by their very nature bureaucratic.
ninly 5y ago
It's unfortunate that that was your experience. The VE experience does vary a lot from one region or group to another. I know there are VE groups that absolutely do better than this even with the conventional paper approach, make it a priority to do things efficiently, and make sure people can sit for all the exams they need/want during any given session. Also, for what it's worth, the entire study and exam process has been undergoing a lot of transformation, especially in response to the pandemic. I expect to see changes in this process, including expansion of online test opportunities, in coming years.

jhoechtl 5y ago

I think you are searching for explanations in the social realm while the truth is all to obvious. Ham used to be about making connections with the guy sitting on the other end of the globe. That's a 100 times solved problem, much more reliably and with much less effort than ham could ever provide. The second thing is ham is about making your own stuff. An AM/FM rig? With SSB? Your own amplifier? That used to be cool long ago when equipment was expensive. Today the equipment is all DSP, software defined. Little chance to lay your hands on, unless you come up with a new SDR like the chinese ATS25 or a malachite rival. Ham is not dead, it just has a much reduced user base because of how things turned out to be. Edited typos

alibarber 5y ago
Hmm - I got into Ham radio nearly 20 years ago as a teenager who loved making electronics. I couldn’t afford to buy the expensive things at the time, now I could probably buy a high-end high power rig and not really feel any financial hit. But I haven’t because it’s still cool to make all those things, and I’m still struggling to get them to work, but am learning and feeling so amazingly satisfied when they do. Also, you sort of can make all kinds of amazing SDR things yourself with even modest microcontrollers and DDS ICs. It’s just a hobby like any other, people still spend massive amounts of money and time on classic cars - they’ll never compete with or better a new Hyundai or something to get from A to B, but that’s missing the point.