23 ms·

Iceland stops using Moderna Covid-19 vaccine

82 points by busymom0 5y ago

grillvogel 5y ago
it almost seems like we needed to wait to get more data before forcing people to take experimental vaccines in order to keep their employment
- bongcloud420 5y ago
  FoLlOw ThE sCiEnCe
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I don't think we understand the true legal ramifications yet, of forcing an experimental vaccine on so many. We knew about the pericarditis, the myocarditis, the blood clots, and the autoimmune disorders, the deaths, they are well documented in VAERS, even if massively undercounted. And yet, our political class did not stop Then Delta emerged, and vaccine efficacy dropped wholesale. Work was made conditional based on jabs. Science became a mantra, but in actuality it was ignored as the strong evidence for natural immunity was silenced. Bigtech previcated, and floundered, attaching notes to obituaries and criticism. Disinformation replaced information, as vaxxes were pushed on those with de minimis risk of covid, the 18 year olds without co-morbidities with 1 in 5 million chances of dying. And yet, our political class did not stop. Now, other democracies with medical systems in many cases matching our own are halting some of the vaccine distribution. It looks like the Chinese with their attenuated vaccines definitely had a better approach. But there is still an active mandate in several sectors of the economy, and an unconstituional campaign to deny religious exemptions that will likely eviscerate employment. Nurses are leaving in droves rather than vaccinate, having seen the side effects up close and personal. When will our political class stop? I sincerely believe we are ahead of the curve on a wave of class action lawsuits the likes of which this country has never seen. Tobacco, Asbestos, and every other toxic substances could pale in comparison to the potential payouts from the deaths, injuries, and reduced longevity coming from these leaky, toxic vaccines.
- margalabargala 5y ago
  >forcing an experimental vaccine on so many I'm not aware of an experimental vaccine being forced on anyone, can you provide an example? Back when all vaccines were operating under an EUA and were experimental, there were zero vaccine mandates. After a vaccine was fully approved and shown to be unequivocally safe and effective, it was then no longer experimental. Mandating vaccines that are shown to be effective and safe is as old as the USA is as a country, and this is no outlier.
  - bjt2n3904 5y ago
    Yeah, it wasn't forced on anyone! Nobody grabbed you and held you down and injected you... You just couldn't travel, go out in public, work at your job, or send your kids to school without it. Totally voluntary.
    - margalabargala 5y ago
      What country are you in that disallowed being in public without a vaccine? That didn't happen anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. As for the rest, again, mandating vaccination is something the US has been doing over and over since the year 1777. This is nothing new. The parent claimed that this vaccine mandate was specifically paired with the vaccine still being in an experimental state, which to my knowledge is not the case.
      - rajin444 5y ago
        I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. Especially when the definition was changed in the past year.
        margalabargala 5y ago
        > I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. That's a fair point, I agree. > Especially when the definition was changed in the past year. Could you elaborate on this part? I went ahead and checked the dictionary definition: > A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease. Which tracks with what I remember from my molecular bio degree ten years ago.
stock_toaster 5y ago
Autotranslated article, and really thin on details. A confusing passage: > According to the [Chief Epidemiologist], the Moderna vaccine has for the past two months been used almost exclusively here for stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few individuals are said to have received the second dose of the basic vaccine that started with Moderna. Any Icelandic readers here? Is my reading correct that they were using Moderna as a booster after a vaccination with either Janssen or a two shot series of Phizer?
- graeme 5y ago
  I read that a few times and yes, came to the same conclusion as you. Moderna as a booster after either J and J or two dose series (which were both moderna and pfizer or az)
aazaa 5y ago
> According to the epidemiologist, the Moderna vaccine has for the past two months been used almost exclusively here for stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few individuals are said to have received the second dose of the basic vaccine that started with Moderna. Assuming the translation is correct, this could be a problem in itself. I'm unaware of a single study on the safety or efficacy of mixing vaccine types like this.
- solarpunk 5y ago
  I think there's like a half-dozen countries doing heterologous vaccination regimens. Here's a Wikipedia link about it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_clinical_research#Heterologous_prime-boost_vaccination https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_clinical_re...
- stinky613 5y ago
  The part that confuses me the most is that the two 'vaccine side effects' in question are the swelling of muscles in or around the heart... But side effects of (even mild[1]) COVID infections include _damage_ to muscles in or around the heart. It seems like halting the use of a flu vaccine because of the flu vaccine causing flu-like symptoms. [1]https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    I think you mean COVID-like symptoms.
  - themgt 5y ago
    In Iceland 95% of the most at-risk over 60 year olds are fully vaccinated and over 90% of everyone over 16 is fully or partially vaccinated. Four people total have died of COVID-19 in Iceland since the beginning of the 2021, around 1/100,000. The evidence for negative vaccine side effects also suggests they're most prevalent in the younger, healthier population least at risk from COVID, who are also the vast majority of the few remaining Icelanders not fully vaccinated. Given all that, when considering the potential risk/benefit of offering Pfizer and Moderna or just Pfizer, the expected upside of continuing to offer Moderna if they have any reason for concern is very small indeed.
Lammy 5y ago
Are we already into 2027 on the SPARS timeline? Hopefully that means this will be over soon and we can all stop hating each other quite so much :) https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1029&context=jicrcr#page=17 https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10...
dukeofdoom 5y ago
It always made more sense to me to vaccinate the highest risk group, and let the general population acquire natural immunity. In this way should a break out occur in the vaccinated, those with natural immunity would buffer it from spreading quickly. Natural immunity is longer lasting and more robust at offering protection from the infection. I worry right now with a scenario where all the vaccinated start getting a breakthrough variant that targets the vaccinated and all get sick at the same time. Really overwhelming the hospitals, in countries with high vaccination rates and no sub population with natural immunity to buffer the spread. Imagine two forests. 1) a forest where all of the trees were sprayed with water. 2) a forest where the most at risk trees were sprayed with water. And a control burn allowed in the rest. The first forest will appear safer at first, but short term while the trees are still wet. But the second forest will be much more protected from future fires, since there will be large patches of burnt forest that will not readily catch fire for a long time. Buffering spread.

82 points by busymom0 5y ago

it almost seems like we needed to wait to get more data before forcing people to take experimental vaccines in order to keep their employment

bongcloud420 5y ago
FoLlOw ThE sCiEnCe

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

I don't think we understand the true legal ramifications yet, of forcing an experimental vaccine on so many. We knew about the pericarditis, the myocarditis, the blood clots, and the autoimmune disorders, the deaths, they are well documented in VAERS, even if massively undercounted. And yet, our political class did not stop Then Delta emerged, and vaccine efficacy dropped wholesale. Work was made conditional based on jabs. Science became a mantra, but in actuality it was ignored as the strong evidence for natural immunity was silenced. Bigtech previcated, and floundered, attaching notes to obituaries and criticism. Disinformation replaced information, as vaxxes were pushed on those with de minimis risk of covid, the 18 year olds without co-morbidities with 1 in 5 million chances of dying. And yet, our political class did not stop. Now, other democracies with medical systems in many cases matching our own are halting some of the vaccine distribution. It looks like the Chinese with their attenuated vaccines definitely had a better approach. But there is still an active mandate in several sectors of the economy, and an unconstituional campaign to deny religious exemptions that will likely eviscerate employment. Nurses are leaving in droves rather than vaccinate, having seen the side effects up close and personal. When will our political class stop? I sincerely believe we are ahead of the curve on a wave of class action lawsuits the likes of which this country has never seen. Tobacco, Asbestos, and every other toxic substances could pale in comparison to the potential payouts from the deaths, injuries, and reduced longevity coming from these leaky, toxic vaccines.

margalabargala 5y ago
>forcing an experimental vaccine on so many I'm not aware of an experimental vaccine being forced on anyone, can you provide an example? Back when all vaccines were operating under an EUA and were experimental, there were zero vaccine mandates. After a vaccine was fully approved and shown to be unequivocally safe and effective, it was then no longer experimental. Mandating vaccines that are shown to be effective and safe is as old as the USA is as a country, and this is no outlier.
- bjt2n3904 5y ago
  Yeah, it wasn't forced on anyone! Nobody grabbed you and held you down and injected you... You just couldn't travel, go out in public, work at your job, or send your kids to school without it. Totally voluntary.
  - margalabargala 5y ago
    What country are you in that disallowed being in public without a vaccine? That didn't happen anywhere in the US that I'm aware of. As for the rest, again, mandating vaccination is something the US has been doing over and over since the year 1777. This is nothing new. The parent claimed that this vaccine mandate was specifically paired with the vaccine still being in an experimental state, which to my knowledge is not the case.
    - rajin444 5y ago
      I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. Especially when the definition was changed in the past year.
      - margalabargala 5y ago
        > I don't think "we've always mandated vaccines" is a good argument. Applying the label of "vaccine" to something does not guarantee anything. That's a fair point, I agree. > Especially when the definition was changed in the past year. Could you elaborate on this part? I went ahead and checked the dictionary definition: > A substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease. Which tracks with what I remember from my molecular bio degree ten years ago.

stock_toaster 5y ago

Autotranslated article, and really thin on details. A confusing passage: > According to the [Chief Epidemiologist], the Moderna vaccine has for the past two months been used almost exclusively here for stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few individuals are said to have received the second dose of the basic vaccine that started with Moderna. Any Icelandic readers here? Is my reading correct that they were using Moderna as a booster after a vaccination with either Janssen or a two shot series of Phizer?

graeme 5y ago
I read that a few times and yes, came to the same conclusion as you. Moderna as a booster after either J and J or two dose series (which were both moderna and pfizer or az)

aazaa 5y ago

> According to the epidemiologist, the Moderna vaccine has for the past two months been used almost exclusively here for stimulation vaccinations after the Janssen vaccine and after two-dose vaccinations for the elderly and immunocompromised. Very few individuals are said to have received the second dose of the basic vaccine that started with Moderna. Assuming the translation is correct, this could be a problem in itself. I'm unaware of a single study on the safety or efficacy of mixing vaccine types like this.

solarpunk 5y ago
I think there's like a half-dozen countries doing heterologous vaccination regimens. Here's a Wikipedia link about it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_clinical_research#Heterologous_prime-boost_vaccination https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccine_clinical_re...
stinky613 5y ago
The part that confuses me the most is that the two 'vaccine side effects' in question are the swelling of muscles in or around the heart... But side effects of (even mild[1]) COVID infections include _damage_ to muscles in or around the heart. It seems like halting the use of a flu vaccine because of the flu vaccine causing flu-like symptoms. [1]https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-long-term-effects/art-20490351 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
  I think you mean COVID-like symptoms.
- themgt 5y ago
  In Iceland 95% of the most at-risk over 60 year olds are fully vaccinated and over 90% of everyone over 16 is fully or partially vaccinated. Four people total have died of COVID-19 in Iceland since the beginning of the 2021, around 1/100,000. The evidence for negative vaccine side effects also suggests they're most prevalent in the younger, healthier population least at risk from COVID, who are also the vast majority of the few remaining Icelanders not fully vaccinated. Given all that, when considering the potential risk/benefit of offering Pfizer and Moderna or just Pfizer, the expected upside of continuing to offer Moderna if they have any reason for concern is very small indeed.

Lammy 5y ago

Are we already into 2027 on the SPARS timeline? Hopefully that means this will be over soon and we can all stop hating each other quite so much :) https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1029&context=jicrcr#page=17 https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=10...

dukeofdoom 5y ago

It always made more sense to me to vaccinate the highest risk group, and let the general population acquire natural immunity. In this way should a break out occur in the vaccinated, those with natural immunity would buffer it from spreading quickly. Natural immunity is longer lasting and more robust at offering protection from the infection. I worry right now with a scenario where all the vaccinated start getting a breakthrough variant that targets the vaccinated and all get sick at the same time. Really overwhelming the hospitals, in countries with high vaccination rates and no sub population with natural immunity to buffer the spread. Imagine two forests. 1) a forest where all of the trees were sprayed with water. 2) a forest where the most at risk trees were sprayed with water. And a control burn allowed in the rest. The first forest will appear safer at first, but short term while the trees are still wet. But the second forest will be much more protected from future fires, since there will be large patches of burnt forest that will not readily catch fire for a long time. Buffering spread.