4 ms·

>The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. I mean it's more than questionable, it's tending towards the ridic

>The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. I mean it's more than questionable, it's tending towards the ridiculous with no well-formed concept of operations. Even in large scale disasters, virtually the only real usage of ham radio has been for 'welfare' traffic ("tell Bob at 212-555-1212 that Alice got out before the fire reached her house"). Cellular providers now have COWs and COLTs for reinforcing networks where the fixed infrastructure has been affected. Iridium phones are easily available. Inmarsat BGAN terminals with high-speed data fit into a messenger bag. HF radio may be the only game in town if the really-big-one comes (HEMP / similar scenario) but it's just not relevant to either command-and-control or tactical operations in most disaster response scenarios.

Johnny555 5y ago
I think you're overestimating the resiliency of cellular networks. After the Katrina hurricane, the FCC mandated that cell sites have at least 8 hours of backup power (which isn't a lot when power can be out for days or weeks), but the industry sued and got the rule replaced with 'self-regulation', with the predictable result: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-killed-rules-that-would-have-prevented-hurricane-ida-outages https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-kille... According to the latest report by the FCC, about 28.1 percent of the cell sites in the area impacted by Ida are offline, leaving hundreds of thousands of customers without service. Another 354,699 residents in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama remain without landline phone, cable, or broadband service. https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-service-status-ida-terrebonne-assumption-parishes/5662235001/ https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-ser... The FCC report shows that as of 11 a.m. Monday, 52% of 2,759 cellular sites across 31 Louisiana parishes were offline as a result of Hurricane Ida. The majority of the downed towers — nearly 65% — were offline due to a lack of power, a problem that could persist for weeks in some parts of the state. In some cases, cell sites are down due to multiple issues, such as power outages, damage to the network or damage to the site itself. CoWs can help in a small disaster or providing service at a shelter, but when thousands of cell sites are offline, there's still going to be a lot of people cut off from communication.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Cellular networks are indeed vulnerable, but he also mentioned satellite phones and BGAN terminals.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    Sure, but $600 sat phones with $100/month (for 60 minutes) plans and $5000 high speed satellite terminals are still out of reach of many people -- the people that can least afford to flee to safety after a disaster. So hams still have a role in coordinating local communication to help communications get outside of the disaster zone.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      > are still out of reach of many people Is ham radio any better on this front? Equipment is bulky and expensive, often requires a large antenna which might be problematic in apartments, requires specific skill (a satellite phone usually "just works") and requires a license before you can legally transmit (granted, in an emergency nobody cares, but I don't know many people who would be happy to spend money on a setup that they wouldn't even be legally allowed to use).
      - sliken 5y ago
        Sure, hand held radios start at $30 and at $75-$100 can be pretty nice. State wide repeater networks are pretty common, there's pretty nice ones in Colorado and California that I've used, I'm sure there's many others. Sure an external antenna $30-$200 can really help if you are in a car, house, or even an apartment if you have a patio. So sure you can blow many $1000s on it, but depending on the hardware and demands you can talk to large repeater network for $60 ish on 2M, and with a bit more skill and testing/certification (A general license) talk to people world wide for a few $100. Here's a quad band radio great for digital modes like js8call to allow keyboard to keyboard chat over long distances for $80: https://qrp-labs.com/qdx.html https://qrp-labs.com/qdx.html Here's a nice programmable 2M radio for $80: https://www.radioddity.com/products/tyt-uv8000e-dual-band-two-way-radio-walkie-talkie-3600mah-battery-car-charger-2-antennas-programming-cable https://www.radioddity.com/products/tyt-uv8000e-dual-band-tw...
jjav 5y ago
> Cellular providers now have COWs and COLTs for reinforcing networks where the fixed infrastructure has been affected. Cell phone network is very fragile, it's the first thing to go. During hurricane Maria, cell covereage was the first thing to die and was out for many weeks (months in some areas).
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  This is in the context of coordinating a disaster response. Just because most people couldn't make a call doesn't mean rescue workers didn't have a signal from a mobile cell tower with a satellite link.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Sure, rescue workers had some connectivity. But typically in a disaster the rescue workers are overwhelmed and a large part of the community is out of communications. A ham per neighborhood can really help get the word out, even for simple stuff like there will be a water truck at the local highschool tomorrow at 2-4pm.

Johnny555 5y ago

I think you're overestimating the resiliency of cellular networks. After the Katrina hurricane, the FCC mandated that cell sites have at least 8 hours of backup power (which isn't a lot when power can be out for days or weeks), but the industry sued and got the rule replaced with 'self-regulation', with the predictable result: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-killed-rules-that-would-have-prevented-hurricane-ida-outages https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-kille... According to the latest report by the FCC, about 28.1 percent of the cell sites in the area impacted by Ida are offline, leaving hundreds of thousands of customers without service. Another 354,699 residents in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama remain without landline phone, cable, or broadband service. https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-service-status-ida-terrebonne-assumption-parishes/5662235001/ https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-ser... The FCC report shows that as of 11 a.m. Monday, 52% of 2,759 cellular sites across 31 Louisiana parishes were offline as a result of Hurricane Ida. The majority of the downed towers — nearly 65% — were offline due to a lack of power, a problem that could persist for weeks in some parts of the state. In some cases, cell sites are down due to multiple issues, such as power outages, damage to the network or damage to the site itself. CoWs can help in a small disaster or providing service at a shelter, but when thousands of cell sites are offline, there's still going to be a lot of people cut off from communication.

Nextgrid 5y ago
Cellular networks are indeed vulnerable, but he also mentioned satellite phones and BGAN terminals.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  Sure, but $600 sat phones with $100/month (for 60 minutes) plans and $5000 high speed satellite terminals are still out of reach of many people -- the people that can least afford to flee to safety after a disaster. So hams still have a role in coordinating local communication to help communications get outside of the disaster zone.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > are still out of reach of many people Is ham radio any better on this front? Equipment is bulky and expensive, often requires a large antenna which might be problematic in apartments, requires specific skill (a satellite phone usually "just works") and requires a license before you can legally transmit (granted, in an emergency nobody cares, but I don't know many people who would be happy to spend money on a setup that they wouldn't even be legally allowed to use).
    - sliken 5y ago
      Sure, hand held radios start at $30 and at $75-$100 can be pretty nice. State wide repeater networks are pretty common, there's pretty nice ones in Colorado and California that I've used, I'm sure there's many others. Sure an external antenna $30-$200 can really help if you are in a car, house, or even an apartment if you have a patio. So sure you can blow many $1000s on it, but depending on the hardware and demands you can talk to large repeater network for $60 ish on 2M, and with a bit more skill and testing/certification (A general license) talk to people world wide for a few $100. Here's a quad band radio great for digital modes like js8call to allow keyboard to keyboard chat over long distances for $80: https://qrp-labs.com/qdx.html https://qrp-labs.com/qdx.html Here's a nice programmable 2M radio for $80: https://www.radioddity.com/products/tyt-uv8000e-dual-band-two-way-radio-walkie-talkie-3600mah-battery-car-charger-2-antennas-programming-cable https://www.radioddity.com/products/tyt-uv8000e-dual-band-tw...

jjav 5y ago

> Cellular providers now have COWs and COLTs for reinforcing networks where the fixed infrastructure has been affected. Cell phone network is very fragile, it's the first thing to go. During hurricane Maria, cell covereage was the first thing to die and was out for many weeks (months in some areas).

mkr-hn 5y ago
This is in the context of coordinating a disaster response. Just because most people couldn't make a call doesn't mean rescue workers didn't have a signal from a mobile cell tower with a satellite link.
- sliken 5y ago
  Sure, rescue workers had some connectivity. But typically in a disaster the rescue workers are overwhelmed and a large part of the community is out of communications. A ham per neighborhood can really help get the word out, even for simple stuff like there will be a water truck at the local highschool tomorrow at 2-4pm.