4 ms·

Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in a quasi-legal status. For factories, you som

Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in a quasi-legal status. For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the factory shutting down after the locals become dependent on it. For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the family and it causes tension between the families not participating. Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is very close to slavery except the small amount of pay. Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can morally campaign for UBI can you? Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign workers. Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented workers that make far below minimum wage? Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned? Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all while foreign workers pick up the slack?

jokethrowaway 5y ago
UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral for those paying to support others who are not working. What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have. When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's the "best deal she has". It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage. It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil. I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    Our government has bailed out banks multiple times, injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social security, disability and welfare, that's the one that makes your blood boil?
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was the topic. (cough whataboutism cough) But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks. As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc. Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
      - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        Some of it is whataboutism, sure. A direct line can be drawn to bank bailouts, airline bailouts, no bid government contracts, military spending and UBI. Our government has decided to supplement the income of some and not others and expected something in return. UBI can be viewed in the same light. You can deduct that much from social security, welfare and government college programs. Those are easy ones, right there. Now it gets more difficult, but that's no small amount - and I'm only talking about the proposed 12K per year UBI. You seem to be under the assumption that people are just going to kick back and retire in Cabo on this, for some reason. You can cut some treatment subsidy programs, because at that point, if a junkie wants to get clean that's where that money should go. Prisoner's payouts get cut, and in America that's not a small amount. This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society. If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.
- chmsky00 5y ago
  It would be immoral to redistribute the real property someone worked on. I have no issue with income distribution of a social value store since allowing it to be monopolized to prop up the value of a minority rich, to let millions starve, or die of preventable disease is immoral and violent. I don’t believe Elon Musk is worth billions. I just can’t take his real stuff. Letting our social value store be co-opted by a handful of memes isn’t exactly free agency, speech, or market of ideas. When “get job, buy stuff” is the one true sentence, why believe ideas like freedom matter?
  - fumar 5y ago
    I don’t follow your reasoning. How are memes changing or impacting currency?
    - Talanes 5y ago
      I'm not sure exactly which ideas the other commenter was referring to, but of course currency is affected by memes. Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value.
      - TomSwirly 5y ago
        > Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value. It would be nice if people spent just a tiny amount of time studying economics before pronouncing on it. A US dollar, for example, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States Government", and this has an objectively measurable value (because there are pairs of almost identical securities where one has "full faith and credit" and the other doesn't). Unless your argument is "all securities and currencies are imaginary," of course, which has no practical value. Please note that I'm a far-left socialist and I consider capitalism destructive to the planet. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in economics.
        chmsky00 5y ago
        Economics are real, but the flow of currency is not economics. The flow of currency is politically influenced and has nothing to do with human trade for humans sake (economics as commonly understood but not actually since it’s conflated with currency movement). What we should realize through the study of economics is just how screwed things are. Anyone with any math sense should see inflation deflates buying power for the public, and has nothing to do with real trade but belief that a billionaire is leveraging real property so well on his own… oh wait all of humanity serves him by not changing the rules to serve themselves. What a convenient self fulfilling prophecy. The math makes it obvious which people are winning and science makes it obvious no one is more than one of seven billion. Somehow it’s miraculously a specific few winning big. Stop listening to it all. People trade. That’s it. There’s no need to speculate and manage the behavior to send billionaires in space on empty promises of humans …magically… becoming the first space faring civ. Sure seems to give Bezos a helluva life. I’m crazy though; humanity has never succumbed to shared fallacy at scale before. Who knows, maybe healthcare and education for all actually empower the kid who goes on to engineer the next big leap, but contemporary political memes filter those break throughs out by miserly tracking currency debts.
- pas 5y ago
  Why is it immoral? Is there an objective morality?

jokethrowaway 5y ago

UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral for those paying to support others who are not working. What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have. When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.

hunterb123 5y ago
A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's the "best deal she has". It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage. It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil. I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  Our government has bailed out banks multiple times, injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social security, disability and welfare, that's the one that makes your blood boil?
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was the topic. (cough whataboutism cough) But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks. As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc. Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
    - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
      Some of it is whataboutism, sure. A direct line can be drawn to bank bailouts, airline bailouts, no bid government contracts, military spending and UBI. Our government has decided to supplement the income of some and not others and expected something in return. UBI can be viewed in the same light. You can deduct that much from social security, welfare and government college programs. Those are easy ones, right there. Now it gets more difficult, but that's no small amount - and I'm only talking about the proposed 12K per year UBI. You seem to be under the assumption that people are just going to kick back and retire in Cabo on this, for some reason. You can cut some treatment subsidy programs, because at that point, if a junkie wants to get clean that's where that money should go. Prisoner's payouts get cut, and in America that's not a small amount. This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society. If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.
chmsky00 5y ago
It would be immoral to redistribute the real property someone worked on. I have no issue with income distribution of a social value store since allowing it to be monopolized to prop up the value of a minority rich, to let millions starve, or die of preventable disease is immoral and violent. I don’t believe Elon Musk is worth billions. I just can’t take his real stuff. Letting our social value store be co-opted by a handful of memes isn’t exactly free agency, speech, or market of ideas. When “get job, buy stuff” is the one true sentence, why believe ideas like freedom matter?
- fumar 5y ago
  I don’t follow your reasoning. How are memes changing or impacting currency?
  - Talanes 5y ago
    I'm not sure exactly which ideas the other commenter was referring to, but of course currency is affected by memes. Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value.
    - TomSwirly 5y ago
      > Currency is a meme: it only has value due to the widespread idea that it should have value. It would be nice if people spent just a tiny amount of time studying economics before pronouncing on it. A US dollar, for example, is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States Government", and this has an objectively measurable value (because there are pairs of almost identical securities where one has "full faith and credit" and the other doesn't). Unless your argument is "all securities and currencies are imaginary," of course, which has no practical value. Please note that I'm a far-left socialist and I consider capitalism destructive to the planet. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in economics.
      - chmsky00 5y ago
        Economics are real, but the flow of currency is not economics. The flow of currency is politically influenced and has nothing to do with human trade for humans sake (economics as commonly understood but not actually since it’s conflated with currency movement). What we should realize through the study of economics is just how screwed things are. Anyone with any math sense should see inflation deflates buying power for the public, and has nothing to do with real trade but belief that a billionaire is leveraging real property so well on his own… oh wait all of humanity serves him by not changing the rules to serve themselves. What a convenient self fulfilling prophecy. The math makes it obvious which people are winning and science makes it obvious no one is more than one of seven billion. Somehow it’s miraculously a specific few winning big. Stop listening to it all. People trade. That’s it. There’s no need to speculate and manage the behavior to send billionaires in space on empty promises of humans …magically… becoming the first space faring civ. Sure seems to give Bezos a helluva life. I’m crazy though; humanity has never succumbed to shared fallacy at scale before. Who knows, maybe healthcare and education for all actually empower the kid who goes on to engineer the next big leap, but contemporary political memes filter those break throughs out by miserly tracking currency debts.
pas 5y ago
Why is it immoral? Is there an objective morality?