7 ms·

The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. Here in Portland, the city puts a lot of effort into emergency prep

by n8cpdx 5y ago

The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. Here in Portland, the city puts a lot of effort into emergency preparedness and getting people trained on radio, but the vast majority of people involved are 55+. I have my doubts about how effective it will be in an actual emergency. I tend to think the effort would be better spent on hardening the existing cell networks, and being ready to deploy public safety LTE, cells-on-wheels or similar. Mass produced consumer tech should enable economies of scale for cell phones that aren't there for ham radios. Full internet isn't actually needed, even just a few independent cells would perform a lot better than the walkie talkies that the CERT teams use.

mmaunder 5y ago
Same here in King and Snohomish counties last time I checked. The SAR teams have been using repeaters. I agree re better cell coverage for that use case, which would include data that could make SAR teams way more effective by e.g. tracking search team coverage in real-time on a single view shared by the entire response. A lot of ham culture is around emergency comms, and every now and then it's useful. But a single portable starlink dish absolutely destroys what ham can do. It would allow for e.g. 50 people on a local wifi network all taking comms requests from people in an impacted area, and sharing the same digital 100Mbps link to get those comms requests out. Can even be self serve. Ham requires an operator occupying dedicated spectrum, serving one customer at a time.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
>The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. I mean it's more than questionable, it's tending towards the ridiculous with no well-formed concept of operations. Even in large scale disasters, virtually the only real usage of ham radio has been for 'welfare' traffic ("tell Bob at 212-555-1212 that Alice got out before the fire reached her house"). Cellular providers now have COWs and COLTs for reinforcing networks where the fixed infrastructure has been affected. Iridium phones are easily available. Inmarsat BGAN terminals with high-speed data fit into a messenger bag. HF radio may be the only game in town if the really-big-one comes (HEMP / similar scenario) but it's just not relevant to either command-and-control or tactical operations in most disaster response scenarios.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  I think you're overestimating the resiliency of cellular networks. After the Katrina hurricane, the FCC mandated that cell sites have at least 8 hours of backup power (which isn't a lot when power can be out for days or weeks), but the industry sued and got the rule replaced with 'self-regulation', with the predictable result: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-killed-rules-that-would-have-prevented-hurricane-ida-outages https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-kille... According to the latest report by the FCC, about 28.1 percent of the cell sites in the area impacted by Ida are offline, leaving hundreds of thousands of customers without service. Another 354,699 residents in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama remain without landline phone, cable, or broadband service. https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-service-status-ida-terrebonne-assumption-parishes/5662235001/ https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-ser... The FCC report shows that as of 11 a.m. Monday, 52% of 2,759 cellular sites across 31 Louisiana parishes were offline as a result of Hurricane Ida. The majority of the downed towers — nearly 65% — were offline due to a lack of power, a problem that could persist for weeks in some parts of the state. In some cases, cell sites are down due to multiple issues, such as power outages, damage to the network or damage to the site itself. CoWs can help in a small disaster or providing service at a shelter, but when thousands of cell sites are offline, there's still going to be a lot of people cut off from communication.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Cellular networks are indeed vulnerable, but he also mentioned satellite phones and BGAN terminals.
    - Johnny555 5y ago
      Sure, but $600 sat phones with $100/month (for 60 minutes) plans and $5000 high speed satellite terminals are still out of reach of many people -- the people that can least afford to flee to safety after a disaster. So hams still have a role in coordinating local communication to help communications get outside of the disaster zone.
ericcumbee 5y ago
economies of scale like the little Baefung (spelling) handheld that you can buy on amazon for 30 dollars and you can listen and talk on ham, GMRS, FRS and Marine bands to name a few?
- Stratoscope 5y ago
  You can listen to any frequency that the Baofeng can tune in, but you can transmit legally only on the ham bands.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Additionally while they work on FRS, they aren't legally licensed to do so.
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  Economies of scale like the dozens of radios that are within feet of my body right now. Economies of scale like smartphones so cheap that almost every single person over the age of 10 has one, including homeless people. Economies of scale like even if my main phone breaks, I can still power on and use the old one in my drawer from 2014, which is just as compatible with LTE as my new one. Also, economy of scale like a single charging standard (USB) with plentiful cheap battery packs and solar panels; almost all having USB A available to plug into. The baofeng only charges through circular plug and dock; you can only charge if you have a battery pack or power source big enough to do mains-style AC power. Not all radios are like this, but it is extremely common. Best I found affordably is a raddiodity R2 (apparently illegal in USA, oops) walki talkie, which has docks that plug in via USB.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  The newer Baofengs exclude GMRS and FRS i thought?
na85 5y ago
I used to work in SAR. We don't want hams on our networks thanks very much. We have satellite-based phones and data. Amateur radio in disaster preparedness is a LARP.
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  Are programs to organize volunteers to help with radio communications a bad idea? We have AROs and ARES and it seemed reasonable. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/pbem/article/563294 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/pbem/article/563294 https://www.multnomahares.org/ https://www.multnomahares.org/ I think the idea is supporting the community in the event of a large scale disaster (specifically the big cascadia subduction zone earthquake).
  - na85 5y ago
    >Are programs to organize volunteers to help with radio communications a bad idea? Of course not, but those volunteers have a very limited role to play in disaster response. I think a lot of these guys fantasize about being the sole link in and out of a stricken community, coordinating helicopter airlifts and stuff. The reality is much more mundane.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Agreed. Not the stuff of action movies, but welfare checks, coordinating with the community what resources are available, where they are, and what times they are available. Think food, water, etc. But if the rescue workers can accommodate helping a smaller percentage of the population hams can help identify folks in dire need. Digital modes, winmail and similar have been heavily used for getting medication to those in need, mostly because some meds need refrigeration and the power grid doesn't have to be down for long for everything refrigerated to go bad.
    - Johnny555 5y ago
      I always assumed that my role as a ham in an disaster would moslty be doing welfare reports (i.e. "tell my mom in Idaho that I'm ok"), and maybe guiding people to local resources like shelters, medical aid, etc. It might be mundane, but that's the kind of things the real first responders aren't going to have time for.

by n8cpdx 5y ago

mmaunder 5y ago

Same here in King and Snohomish counties last time I checked. The SAR teams have been using repeaters. I agree re better cell coverage for that use case, which would include data that could make SAR teams way more effective by e.g. tracking search team coverage in real-time on a single view shared by the entire response. A lot of ham culture is around emergency comms, and every now and then it's useful. But a single portable starlink dish absolutely destroys what ham can do. It would allow for e.g. 50 people on a local wifi network all taking comms requests from people in an impacted area, and sharing the same digital 100Mbps link to get those comms requests out. Can even be self serve. Ham requires an operator occupying dedicated spectrum, serving one customer at a time.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

>The one area where it's still relevant is disaster response, but even that is questionable. I mean it's more than questionable, it's tending towards the ridiculous with no well-formed concept of operations. Even in large scale disasters, virtually the only real usage of ham radio has been for 'welfare' traffic ("tell Bob at 212-555-1212 that Alice got out before the fire reached her house"). Cellular providers now have COWs and COLTs for reinforcing networks where the fixed infrastructure has been affected. Iridium phones are easily available. Inmarsat BGAN terminals with high-speed data fit into a messenger bag. HF radio may be the only game in town if the really-big-one comes (HEMP / similar scenario) but it's just not relevant to either command-and-control or tactical operations in most disaster response scenarios.

Johnny555 5y ago
I think you're overestimating the resiliency of cellular networks. After the Katrina hurricane, the FCC mandated that cell sites have at least 8 hours of backup power (which isn't a lot when power can be out for days or weeks), but the industry sued and got the rule replaced with 'self-regulation', with the predictable result: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-killed-rules-that-would-have-prevented-hurricane-ida-outages https://www.vice.com/en/article/dyv9j7/how-big-telecom-kille... According to the latest report by the FCC, about 28.1 percent of the cell sites in the area impacted by Ida are offline, leaving hundreds of thousands of customers without service. Another 354,699 residents in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama remain without landline phone, cable, or broadband service. https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-service-status-ida-terrebonne-assumption-parishes/5662235001/ https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/08/31/cell-ser... The FCC report shows that as of 11 a.m. Monday, 52% of 2,759 cellular sites across 31 Louisiana parishes were offline as a result of Hurricane Ida. The majority of the downed towers — nearly 65% — were offline due to a lack of power, a problem that could persist for weeks in some parts of the state. In some cases, cell sites are down due to multiple issues, such as power outages, damage to the network or damage to the site itself. CoWs can help in a small disaster or providing service at a shelter, but when thousands of cell sites are offline, there's still going to be a lot of people cut off from communication.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Cellular networks are indeed vulnerable, but he also mentioned satellite phones and BGAN terminals.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    Sure, but $600 sat phones with $100/month (for 60 minutes) plans and $5000 high speed satellite terminals are still out of reach of many people -- the people that can least afford to flee to safety after a disaster. So hams still have a role in coordinating local communication to help communications get outside of the disaster zone.

ericcumbee 5y ago

economies of scale like the little Baefung (spelling) handheld that you can buy on amazon for 30 dollars and you can listen and talk on ham, GMRS, FRS and Marine bands to name a few?

Stratoscope 5y ago
You can listen to any frequency that the Baofeng can tune in, but you can transmit legally only on the ham bands.
- sliken 5y ago
  Additionally while they work on FRS, they aren't legally licensed to do so.
n8cpdx 5y ago
Economies of scale like the dozens of radios that are within feet of my body right now. Economies of scale like smartphones so cheap that almost every single person over the age of 10 has one, including homeless people. Economies of scale like even if my main phone breaks, I can still power on and use the old one in my drawer from 2014, which is just as compatible with LTE as my new one. Also, economy of scale like a single charging standard (USB) with plentiful cheap battery packs and solar panels; almost all having USB A available to plug into. The baofeng only charges through circular plug and dock; you can only charge if you have a battery pack or power source big enough to do mains-style AC power. Not all radios are like this, but it is extremely common. Best I found affordably is a raddiodity R2 (apparently illegal in USA, oops) walki talkie, which has docks that plug in via USB.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
The newer Baofengs exclude GMRS and FRS i thought?

na85 5y ago

I used to work in SAR. We don't want hams on our networks thanks very much. We have satellite-based phones and data. Amateur radio in disaster preparedness is a LARP.

n8cpdx 5y ago
Are programs to organize volunteers to help with radio communications a bad idea? We have AROs and ARES and it seemed reasonable. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/pbem/article/563294 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/pbem/article/563294 https://www.multnomahares.org/ https://www.multnomahares.org/ I think the idea is supporting the community in the event of a large scale disaster (specifically the big cascadia subduction zone earthquake).
- na85 5y ago
  >Are programs to organize volunteers to help with radio communications a bad idea? Of course not, but those volunteers have a very limited role to play in disaster response. I think a lot of these guys fantasize about being the sole link in and out of a stricken community, coordinating helicopter airlifts and stuff. The reality is much more mundane.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Agreed. Not the stuff of action movies, but welfare checks, coordinating with the community what resources are available, where they are, and what times they are available. Think food, water, etc. But if the rescue workers can accommodate helping a smaller percentage of the population hams can help identify folks in dire need. Digital modes, winmail and similar have been heavily used for getting medication to those in need, mostly because some meds need refrigeration and the power grid doesn't have to be down for long for everything refrigerated to go bad.
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    I always assumed that my role as a ham in an disaster would moslty be doing welfare reports (i.e. "tell my mom in Idaho that I'm ok"), and maybe guiding people to local resources like shelters, medical aid, etc. It might be mundane, but that's the kind of things the real first responders aren't going to have time for.