7 ms·

Why wouldn't you support it? Seems like a win-win for most parties involved.

by smabie 5y ago

dylan604 5y ago
It's not a matter of supporting hiring people of different nationalities. It's supporting the current conditions surrounding these employees. If these workers are not of a legal status, then they are easily abused (working conditions/below minimum pay/etc). These workers are more fearful of being deported than the abuse which means they do not report any of the wrongs that may be occurring. To me, this says much more about the employer.
hunterb123 5y ago
Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in a quasi-legal status. For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the factory shutting down after the locals become dependent on it. For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the family and it causes tension between the families not participating. Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is very close to slavery except the small amount of pay. Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can morally campaign for UBI can you? Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign workers. Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented workers that make far below minimum wage? Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned? Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all while foreign workers pick up the slack?
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral for those paying to support others who are not working. What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have. When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's the "best deal she has". It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage. It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil. I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
    - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
      Our government has bailed out banks multiple times, injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social security, disability and welfare, that's the one that makes your blood boil?
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was the topic. (cough whataboutism cough) But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks. As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc. Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
        UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        Some of it is whataboutism, sure. A direct line can be drawn to bank bailouts, airline bailouts, no bid government contracts, military spending and UBI. Our government has decided to supplement the income of some and not others and expected something in return. UBI can be viewed in the same light. You can deduct that much from social security, welfare and government college programs. Those are easy ones, right there. Now it gets more difficult, but that's no small amount - and I'm only talking about the proposed 12K per year UBI. You seem to be under the assumption that people are just going to kick back and retire in Cabo on this, for some reason. You can cut some treatment subsidy programs, because at that point, if a junkie wants to get clean that's where that money should go. Prisoner's payouts get cut, and in America that's not a small amount. This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society. If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.
forgotmyoldname 5y ago
I’m 100% against having a ruling upper class and hard labor lower class, especially one determined by nationality. It’s disgusting and something we left behind in the 19th century until international capitalism reinvented it.

Why wouldn't you support it? Seems like a win-win for most parties involved.

by smabie 5y ago

Why wouldn't you support it? Seems like a win-win for most parties involved.

It's not a matter of supporting hiring people of different nationalities. It's supporting the current conditions surrounding these employees. If these workers are not of a legal status, then they are easily abused (working conditions/below minimum pay/etc). These workers are more fearful of being deported than the abuse which means they do not report any of the wrongs that may be occurring. To me, this says much more about the employer.

hunterb123 5y ago

Directly, it usually it leads to poor working conditions when you have non-residential workers, especially ones in a quasi-legal status. For factories, you sometimes have the problem of the factory shutting down after the locals become dependent on it. For migrant working, it's hard on the children of the family and it causes tension between the families not participating. Philosophically, one could argue it's exploitation and is very close to slavery except the small amount of pay. Until this type of work is extinct I don't think one can morally campaign for UBI can you? Currently this type of work is apparently necessary so we've accepted that the system cannot either pay the more wealthy citizen's wage nor up the wage of the foreign workers. Is there a demand to up the wage of these non-represented workers that make far below minimum wage? Is there a demand to up the wage of minimal wage for citizens and are the foreign workers mentioned? Is there a demand for UBI for citizens to not work at all while foreign workers pick up the slack?

jokethrowaway 5y ago
UBI is income redistribution. It will always be immoral for those paying to support others who are not working. What you describe is not exploitation, people are working of their own will and that's the best deal they can have. When you'll eliminate those jobs with income redistribution and minimum wage those people (especially if they're coming in from a different, poorer country) will just be out of a job.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  A prostitute can be exploited by a pimp even though it's her own will to work vs be homeless under a bridge. It's the "best deal she has". It may be the best option for these people, but you are exploiting their poverty for your profit, otherwise you'd pay the minimum wage. It's the people who cry minimum wage hikes while exploiting this business that make my blood boil. I agree about UBI, it's immoral, period.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    Our government has bailed out banks multiple times, injected money into the stock market, the airlines, a constant state of war that has lasted since Bush one that has cost trillions of dollars... but UBI that can have its cost reduced by drawing its budget from social security, disability and welfare, that's the one that makes your blood boil?
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      Many things can make my blood boil, but this thing was the topic. (cough whataboutism cough) But yes people supporting near slave labor while also wanting UBI does make my blood boil, lazy fucks. As does child-trafficking, bank bailouts, defense contract laundering, nepotism, etc. Gotta have ice cold veins to counteract all that blood boiling bullshit in the world, dontcha.
      - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        Some of it is whataboutism, sure. A direct line can be drawn to bank bailouts, airline bailouts, no bid government contracts, military spending and UBI. Our government has decided to supplement the income of some and not others and expected something in return. UBI can be viewed in the same light. You can deduct that much from social security, welfare and government college programs. Those are easy ones, right there. Now it gets more difficult, but that's no small amount - and I'm only talking about the proposed 12K per year UBI. You seem to be under the assumption that people are just going to kick back and retire in Cabo on this, for some reason. You can cut some treatment subsidy programs, because at that point, if a junkie wants to get clean that's where that money should go. Prisoner's payouts get cut, and in America that's not a small amount. This is a 5 minute budget analysis and not even a real thought process, but people get so emotional about these things that all rational thought goes by the wayside of any benefits that might occur. People might not have so much worry about job insecurity of being one bill away from homelessness. Higher education would be more attainable for so many people. A single income family might be able to take care of a child while one of the parents focused on educating and helping the child become a decent member of society. If you don't want to help fix the present and the future then you shouldn't complain about it. If you're fine with the direction everything is going, then that's great.

forgotmyoldname 5y ago

I’m 100% against having a ruling upper class and hard labor lower class, especially one determined by nationality. It’s disgusting and something we left behind in the 19th century until international capitalism reinvented it.