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This is what I came here to say. The encryption prohibition destroys the biggest use case I can see, which is long distance mesh networks. Those networks would

This is what I came here to say. The encryption prohibition destroys the biggest use case I can see, which is long distance mesh networks. Those networks would represent a leap forward for both HAM radio and for the development of a resilient, grassroots, worldwide communication system.

jcims 5y ago
There’s limited bandwidth available. I definitely think it’s worth experimenting, but my expectation would be that any bands that allow for encryption would quickly be saturated with traffic.
- generalizations 5y ago
  I imagine there might be other mechanisms for limiting abuse - e.g., limit the traffic that any given call sign can generate. The call signs can help ensure it's non-commercial. Plus, don't people like doing fox hunts?
  - jcims 5y ago
    We would learn a lot, that's for sure. I wonder if they could time box an experiment for 5 years and see what happens.
    - Johnythree 5y ago
      Once the Commercial users get their foot in the door, you'll never be able to close it.
- blitzar 5y ago
  People do experiment - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx6cm1rNDLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx6cm1rNDLM
  - jcims 5y ago
    Of course, packet radio, APRS, etc have been around for decades. It's just not encrypted.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      You could build out an entire POC test net without encryption, but it feels like something is missing or it would have been done already. Lack of bandwidth / capacity to reach any meaningful speed, scale, reliability etc? Or just no demand given how effective copper / wifi / 5g is? Or perhaps the 'hobby' really is dead and there just are not the tinkerers there once were.
      - generalizations 5y ago
        > Or perhaps the 'hobby' really is dead and there just are not the tinkerers there once were. The tinkerers are there, but encryption is a must-have. If HAM can't make that work, it's likely to die.
        jcims 5y ago
        All this fear mongering is just setting the stage for sale of the spectrum. The hobby is still growing and has been continuously for decades. https://www.clearskyinstitute.com/ham/stats/index.html https://www.clearskyinstitute.com/ham/stats/index.html It’s not growing like the Internet, but there isn’t space like the Internet. It’s fixed real estate that can only have so many people on at one time. If you cruise the HF bands in the evening there’s lots of chatter going on, there’s no room for 1000 times as many people. Yes it could grow faster, yes it could be much much much more welcoming to new people. The industry could support it with cheaper hardware and technology that allows for more tinkering. But if we want make wholesale changes to the regulations, like allowing encryption, it’s going to have to be very well thought out.
        generalizations 5y ago
        > But if we want make wholesale changes to the regulations, like allowing encryption, it’s going to have to be very well thought out. I'm all for working out a really good way to allow encryption. But it sure seems like the pervasive reaction to encryption is just resistance; and that makes me pessimistic.
op00to 5y ago
There’s been long distance mesh networks since the 80s with packet radio. Unencrypted. Somehow they made it work then and it still works today.
goodpoint 5y ago
> a resilient, grassroots, worldwide communication system With the tsunamis, the impending climate collapse and social unrest this should be seen as a need rather than a hobby. Governments allocated huge chunks of the spectrum for commercial use (and pocketed lobby money) while keeping HAM radio unusable and public use spectrum tiny.

jcims 5y ago

There’s limited bandwidth available. I definitely think it’s worth experimenting, but my expectation would be that any bands that allow for encryption would quickly be saturated with traffic.

generalizations 5y ago
I imagine there might be other mechanisms for limiting abuse - e.g., limit the traffic that any given call sign can generate. The call signs can help ensure it's non-commercial. Plus, don't people like doing fox hunts?
- jcims 5y ago
  We would learn a lot, that's for sure. I wonder if they could time box an experiment for 5 years and see what happens.
  - Johnythree 5y ago
    Once the Commercial users get their foot in the door, you'll never be able to close it.
blitzar 5y ago
People do experiment - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx6cm1rNDLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx6cm1rNDLM
- jcims 5y ago
  Of course, packet radio, APRS, etc have been around for decades. It's just not encrypted.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    You could build out an entire POC test net without encryption, but it feels like something is missing or it would have been done already. Lack of bandwidth / capacity to reach any meaningful speed, scale, reliability etc? Or just no demand given how effective copper / wifi / 5g is? Or perhaps the 'hobby' really is dead and there just are not the tinkerers there once were.
    - generalizations 5y ago
      > Or perhaps the 'hobby' really is dead and there just are not the tinkerers there once were. The tinkerers are there, but encryption is a must-have. If HAM can't make that work, it's likely to die.
      - jcims 5y ago
        All this fear mongering is just setting the stage for sale of the spectrum. The hobby is still growing and has been continuously for decades. https://www.clearskyinstitute.com/ham/stats/index.html https://www.clearskyinstitute.com/ham/stats/index.html It’s not growing like the Internet, but there isn’t space like the Internet. It’s fixed real estate that can only have so many people on at one time. If you cruise the HF bands in the evening there’s lots of chatter going on, there’s no room for 1000 times as many people. Yes it could grow faster, yes it could be much much much more welcoming to new people. The industry could support it with cheaper hardware and technology that allows for more tinkering. But if we want make wholesale changes to the regulations, like allowing encryption, it’s going to have to be very well thought out.
        generalizations 5y ago
        > But if we want make wholesale changes to the regulations, like allowing encryption, it’s going to have to be very well thought out. I'm all for working out a really good way to allow encryption. But it sure seems like the pervasive reaction to encryption is just resistance; and that makes me pessimistic.

op00to 5y ago

There’s been long distance mesh networks since the 80s with packet radio. Unencrypted. Somehow they made it work then and it still works today.

goodpoint 5y ago

> a resilient, grassroots, worldwide communication system With the tsunamis, the impending climate collapse and social unrest this should be seen as a need rather than a hobby. Governments allocated huge chunks of the spectrum for commercial use (and pocketed lobby money) while keeping HAM radio unusable and public use spectrum tiny.