4 ms·

Even decades after reunification, the socioeconomic differences between areas that used to be East and West Germany are still very apparent.

killerpopiller 5y ago
for example?
- bagels 5y ago
  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/06/east-germany-has-narrowed-economic-gap-with-west-germany-since-fall-of-communism-but-still-lags/?amp=1 https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/06/east-german...
- kesselvon 5y ago
  East Germans are a lot poorer, the East German economy is a lot lower productivity and investment, and politically the old DDR states lean a bit more right (ripe area for AfD recruitment). Some West germans still look down on Ossies, even though Merkel was one herself. It's a lot like how northern states look down on southern states in the U.S.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Well, I've got a surprise for you
  - kataklasm 5y ago
    Interestingly enough, the east is the most prolific voting area for both far right and the left. Both AfD and Die Linke had their best results in the eastern states. Might be connected to the horseshoe theory, I'm thinking. Where voters don't have a specific connection to any one political mindset so they choose the party that is the most extreme in their mind and won't hesitate to switch to another more extreme party, even if they switch from far left to far right because they aren't affiliated with a specific political mindset.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  On the way between Hamburg and Berlin, there's an area that looks like a deserted warzone. It's where all the young people came from that moved to big cities for the better job opportunities. The people that remain are elderly / unemployed, so naturally those villages will decay. The east had quite some areas that relied on local industry and/or farming for people's income. During the unification, most industry was auctioned off to westerners, so the east took a pretty big hit, both in terms of losing company tax revenue and in terms of losing high-skilled labor.
  - downrightmike 5y ago
    There are a lot of areas in the east that are abandoned and falling into decay.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    This is the precise problem that rural America has with youth abandoning the rural areas. The cure for this is immigration, but the people that remain in the rural areas are very right wing and very xenophobic.
    - coryrc 5y ago
      That cure is worse than the disease. We don't need people living all over for no good reason.
- SonicScrub 5y ago
  Here's a good image detailing the wage differences between East-West. Similar charts can be found for GDP, quality of life, and other assorted economic measures. As well as many cultural differentiators like religion. The wall fell decades ago, but the impacts remain, therefore sometimes it makes sense to distinguish between the two. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimage%2FFromMay2014%2Fporzio29febfig1.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org%2Farticle%2Fwhy-east-germans-are-not-taking-advantage-large-wage-gap-between-east-and-west-germany&tbnid=-QhRRmYqpLtr3M&vet=12ahUKEwi4g7n0vLvzAhUrqXIEHVsEDHsQMygGegUIARC6AQ..i&docid=Oq3_jZ9VStARpM&w=437&h=549&itg=1&q=economic%20divide%20east%20west%20germany&ved=2ahUKEwi4g7n0vLvzAhUrqXIEHVsEDHsQMygGegUIARC6AQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org...
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    You probably want to include the context for the graphic. "Average Wage in Germany by County Notes: Average daily wages obtained from a 50% random sample of establishments via the Establishment History Panel (BHP) of the Institute for Employment Research (IAB). Real wages are expressed in 2007 euros valued in Bonn, the former capital of West Germany, using county-specific prices. East–West border is drawn for clarification; there is no border today."
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  Look at a night time aerial photo of Berlin, you can still see where the wall was (via the color temp of the lights). Reintegration takes a while.
  - iSnow 5y ago
    That special photo is really old by now. Today, you have to know where the wall was to know. Berlin has switched to LED-lighting for all new street lights.
- dnissley 5y ago
  Found this analysis of the wealth gap between east and west germans: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121292/1/837461987.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121292/1/837461987.p... TL;DR: at the 50th percentile, net worth of west germans was ~40k in 2012 vs ~14k for east germans (in euros).
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Ignoring Merkel and the former President Gauck, the percentage of Ossis in prestigious, affluent or influential positions is very subpar. Enterpreneurs, CEOs, well-known artists, professors, generals, judges ... are disproportionally Wessis, and immigrated Wessis dominate in those positions even in former GDR. IIRC the discrepancy between population share and elite share for Ossis is even worse than for American blacks.
- malandrew 5y ago
  https://vividmaps.com/germany-is-still-divided-by-east-and-west/ https://vividmaps.com/germany-is-still-divided-by-east-and-w...
micromacrofoot 5y ago
I see the effects of redlining in the US carry on for decades after physical barriers like highways have been removed, so I absolutely believe it.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
The German reunification should be a lesson for people who believe it's easy to change a country and its economy. I remember when the reunification started I firmly believed that the East would quickly get up to speed once the Western system was applied there. It should be easy and the Easterners would be happy. Turns out that progress was slow despite enormous investments and the Easterners didn't really appreciate that the West completely ignored things that Easterners actually liked (their "achievements" = "Errungenschaften" was a big word). When you consider how difficult the process was/is despite East and West Germany being very close culturally it becomes clear that things like "fixing" and "democratizing" countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are pretty hopeless endeavors. I don't think as Westerner you can even remotely understand the culture and the fact that maybe the people there don't want Western culture.

killerpopiller 5y ago

for example?

bagels 5y ago
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/06/east-germany-has-narrowed-economic-gap-with-west-germany-since-fall-of-communism-but-still-lags/?amp=1 https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/11/06/east-german...
kesselvon 5y ago
East Germans are a lot poorer, the East German economy is a lot lower productivity and investment, and politically the old DDR states lean a bit more right (ripe area for AfD recruitment). Some West germans still look down on Ossies, even though Merkel was one herself. It's a lot like how northern states look down on southern states in the U.S.
- bserge 5y ago
  Well, I've got a surprise for you
- kataklasm 5y ago
  Interestingly enough, the east is the most prolific voting area for both far right and the left. Both AfD and Die Linke had their best results in the eastern states. Might be connected to the horseshoe theory, I'm thinking. Where voters don't have a specific connection to any one political mindset so they choose the party that is the most extreme in their mind and won't hesitate to switch to another more extreme party, even if they switch from far left to far right because they aren't affiliated with a specific political mindset.
fxtentacle 5y ago
On the way between Hamburg and Berlin, there's an area that looks like a deserted warzone. It's where all the young people came from that moved to big cities for the better job opportunities. The people that remain are elderly / unemployed, so naturally those villages will decay. The east had quite some areas that relied on local industry and/or farming for people's income. During the unification, most industry was auctioned off to westerners, so the east took a pretty big hit, both in terms of losing company tax revenue and in terms of losing high-skilled labor.
- downrightmike 5y ago
  There are a lot of areas in the east that are abandoned and falling into decay.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  This is the precise problem that rural America has with youth abandoning the rural areas. The cure for this is immigration, but the people that remain in the rural areas are very right wing and very xenophobic.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    That cure is worse than the disease. We don't need people living all over for no good reason.
SonicScrub 5y ago
Here's a good image detailing the wage differences between East-West. Similar charts can be found for GDP, quality of life, and other assorted economic measures. As well as many cultural differentiators like religion. The wall fell decades ago, but the impacts remain, therefore sometimes it makes sense to distinguish between the two. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimage%2FFromMay2014%2Fporzio29febfig1.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org%2Farticle%2Fwhy-east-germans-are-not-taking-advantage-large-wage-gap-between-east-and-west-germany&tbnid=-QhRRmYqpLtr3M&vet=12ahUKEwi4g7n0vLvzAhUrqXIEHVsEDHsQMygGegUIARC6AQ..i&docid=Oq3_jZ9VStARpM&w=437&h=549&itg=1&q=economic%20divide%20east%20west%20germany&ved=2ahUKEwi4g7n0vLvzAhUrqXIEHVsEDHsQMygGegUIARC6AQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvoxeu.org...
- ethbr0 5y ago
  You probably want to include the context for the graphic. "Average Wage in Germany by County Notes: Average daily wages obtained from a 50% random sample of establishments via the Establishment History Panel (BHP) of the Institute for Employment Research (IAB). Real wages are expressed in 2007 euros valued in Bonn, the former capital of West Germany, using county-specific prices. East–West border is drawn for clarification; there is no border today."
quickthrowman 5y ago
Look at a night time aerial photo of Berlin, you can still see where the wall was (via the color temp of the lights). Reintegration takes a while.
- iSnow 5y ago
  That special photo is really old by now. Today, you have to know where the wall was to know. Berlin has switched to LED-lighting for all new street lights.
dnissley 5y ago
Found this analysis of the wealth gap between east and west germans: https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121292/1/837461987.pdf https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/121292/1/837461987.p... TL;DR: at the 50th percentile, net worth of west germans was ~40k in 2012 vs ~14k for east germans (in euros).
inglor_cz 5y ago
Ignoring Merkel and the former President Gauck, the percentage of Ossis in prestigious, affluent or influential positions is very subpar. Enterpreneurs, CEOs, well-known artists, professors, generals, judges ... are disproportionally Wessis, and immigrated Wessis dominate in those positions even in former GDR. IIRC the discrepancy between population share and elite share for Ossis is even worse than for American blacks.
malandrew 5y ago
https://vividmaps.com/germany-is-still-divided-by-east-and-west/ https://vividmaps.com/germany-is-still-divided-by-east-and-w...

micromacrofoot 5y ago

I see the effects of redlining in the US carry on for decades after physical barriers like highways have been removed, so I absolutely believe it.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

The German reunification should be a lesson for people who believe it's easy to change a country and its economy. I remember when the reunification started I firmly believed that the East would quickly get up to speed once the Western system was applied there. It should be easy and the Easterners would be happy. Turns out that progress was slow despite enormous investments and the Easterners didn't really appreciate that the West completely ignored things that Easterners actually liked (their "achievements" = "Errungenschaften" was a big word). When you consider how difficult the process was/is despite East and West Germany being very close culturally it becomes clear that things like "fixing" and "democratizing" countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are pretty hopeless endeavors. I don't think as Westerner you can even remotely understand the culture and the fact that maybe the people there don't want Western culture.