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The others that are vaccinated right? The others that even though they are vaccinated, can receive and transmit the virus to others. So what are the risks of

The others that are vaccinated right? The others that even though they are vaccinated, can receive and transmit the virus to others. So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again?

noahtallen 5y ago
> So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again? Dying or taking up a valuable ICU bed. And that’s not just bad for them, but also for anyone else who might have need for ICU, or someone who is medically unable to get the vaccine who is now also at increased risk. The point isn’t that it magically makes everything perfect, but that at scale, vaccines very much decrease the severity of the pandemic.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  vaccinated people can't die eh? what's the fatality rate of covid again? while we're at your plan, let's also round up all the fatties and fire them until they work out, that is the leading cause in morbidity when it comes to covid, plus we'd wipe out the #1 and #2 killers of humans.
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    >let's also round up all the fatties and fire them until they work out Surely you realize this is a false equivalency. One cannot 'contract' obesity from someone else in an elevator.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      that wasn't the premise. fat people can (and do) take up an ICU bed that could go to healthy people. if it were a proper vaccine, the vaccinated wouldn't be able to contract covid at all.
      - colejohnson66 5y ago
        > if it were a proper vaccine, the vaccinated wouldn't be able to contract covid at all. And if COVID would stop mutating, we wouldn’t have a vaccine be (possibly) less effective as time goes on. Surely you realize that a vaccine is not (and never was or is) 100% effective?
        angelzen 5y ago
        mRNA covid vaccines are, sadly, in a class of their own. Compare with, e.g., polio vaccine: > Two doses of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) are 90% effective or more against polio; three doses are 99% to 100% effective. > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur...
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        Polio is also far less widespread than COVID-19
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        One of the reasons for that is that Polio is still vaccinated against, very thoroughly. Because it's a terrible disease. Seriously, check the vaccines that a standard UK person gets: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-... All the "6-in-1", "4-in-1", "3-in-1" include anti-tetanus, diphtheria and Polio shots. A 15-year-old UK citizen has had Five doses against those diseases in this standard schedule. But these diseases are not a problem any more, not widespread? Yeah, vaccination is the reason for that.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Absolutely. Note that all the standard schedule vaccines offer long term, possibly life-time protection against both infection and severe cases. Alas, there are no signs that the current crop of covid vaccines are capable of the same performance. The problem of long term effective vaccines against sars (and flu btw) is still wide open. For example, one of the highest vaccinated countries in the world, Singapore, is now experiencing a covid spike with cases in the same order as Texas or Florida, the supposed bastions of stubborn resistance to vaccines. Deaths are still way behind, so those vaccines are good for something.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> The others that even though they are vaccinated, can receive and transmit the virus to others. I am a stuck record on this topic by now, but the word "can" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You're making it sound like vaccinated and unvaccinated are equivalent, but they are not. I can win the lottery. I can win a coin toss. But they are not equivalent, the odds are drastically different, so the risk management is different between the two cases. There's more to it than "it can/cannot happen". it's not boolean. It's all risk mitigation, phrases like "80% vaccine efficacy" should tell you that we're not sith dealing in absolutes here. it is simply pragmatic good sense to keep unvaccinated staff away from patients, because of the increased risk.
jasonlaramburu 5y ago
>So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again? The data is clear that unvaccinated people are at least 5X more likely to contract and spread COVID-19[1]. So the fewer unvaccinated people in the workplace, the less likely an outbreak becomes. [1] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/cdc-unvaccinated-5-times-more-likely-get-covid-19 https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/cdc-unva...
- hunterb123 5y ago
  what are the chances those people still haven't contracted covid? why ignore natural immunity? are you okay with this new normal, comply or die? (an economic death)
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    I believe that American workers have a right to a safe workplace. It is a fact that the federal government has the power to set and regulate workplace safety standards. This is not new.
    - listenallyall 5y ago
      So why not continue testing unvaccinated people, and allow them to work as long as the test comes back negative? Why throw a blanket over an entire group, even when the majority of them are perfectly healthy?
      - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        >So why not continue testing unvaccinated people, and allow them to work as long as the test comes back negative? They can. The US mandate allows unvaccinated workers to either get vaccinated or submit to weekly testing.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > why ignore natural immunity? Why avoid vaccination, after infection? Apparently it's quite beneficial to get vaccinated then.

The others that are vaccinated right? The others that even though they are vaccinated, can receive and transmit the virus to others. So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again?

noahtallen 5y ago

> So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again? Dying or taking up a valuable ICU bed. And that’s not just bad for them, but also for anyone else who might have need for ICU, or someone who is medically unable to get the vaccine who is now also at increased risk. The point isn’t that it magically makes everything perfect, but that at scale, vaccines very much decrease the severity of the pandemic.

hunterb123 5y ago
vaccinated people can't die eh? what's the fatality rate of covid again? while we're at your plan, let's also round up all the fatties and fire them until they work out, that is the leading cause in morbidity when it comes to covid, plus we'd wipe out the #1 and #2 killers of humans.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  >let's also round up all the fatties and fire them until they work out Surely you realize this is a false equivalency. One cannot 'contract' obesity from someone else in an elevator.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    that wasn't the premise. fat people can (and do) take up an ICU bed that could go to healthy people. if it were a proper vaccine, the vaccinated wouldn't be able to contract covid at all.
    - colejohnson66 5y ago
      > if it were a proper vaccine, the vaccinated wouldn't be able to contract covid at all. And if COVID would stop mutating, we wouldn’t have a vaccine be (possibly) less effective as time goes on. Surely you realize that a vaccine is not (and never was or is) 100% effective?
      - angelzen 5y ago
        mRNA covid vaccines are, sadly, in a class of their own. Compare with, e.g., polio vaccine: > Two doses of inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) are 90% effective or more against polio; three doses are 99% to 100% effective. > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur...
        jasonlaramburu 5y ago
        Polio is also far less widespread than COVID-19
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        One of the reasons for that is that Polio is still vaccinated against, very thoroughly. Because it's a terrible disease. Seriously, check the vaccines that a standard UK person gets: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-... All the "6-in-1", "4-in-1", "3-in-1" include anti-tetanus, diphtheria and Polio shots. A 15-year-old UK citizen has had Five doses against those diseases in this standard schedule. But these diseases are not a problem any more, not widespread? Yeah, vaccination is the reason for that.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Absolutely. Note that all the standard schedule vaccines offer long term, possibly life-time protection against both infection and severe cases. Alas, there are no signs that the current crop of covid vaccines are capable of the same performance. The problem of long term effective vaccines against sars (and flu btw) is still wide open. For example, one of the highest vaccinated countries in the world, Singapore, is now experiencing a covid spike with cases in the same order as Texas or Florida, the supposed bastions of stubborn resistance to vaccines. Deaths are still way behind, so those vaccines are good for something.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> The others that even though they are vaccinated, can receive and transmit the virus to others. I am a stuck record on this topic by now, but the word "can" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You're making it sound like vaccinated and unvaccinated are equivalent, but they are not. I can win the lottery. I can win a coin toss. But they are not equivalent, the odds are drastically different, so the risk management is different between the two cases. There's more to it than "it can/cannot happen". it's not boolean. It's all risk mitigation, phrases like "80% vaccine efficacy" should tell you that we're not sith dealing in absolutes here. it is simply pragmatic good sense to keep unvaccinated staff away from patients, because of the increased risk.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago

>So what are the risks of unvaccinated people again? The data is clear that unvaccinated people are at least 5X more likely to contract and spread COVID-19[1]. So the fewer unvaccinated people in the workplace, the less likely an outbreak becomes. [1] https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/cdc-unvaccinated-5-times-more-likely-get-covid-19 https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/08/cdc-unva...

hunterb123 5y ago
what are the chances those people still haven't contracted covid? why ignore natural immunity? are you okay with this new normal, comply or die? (an economic death)
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  I believe that American workers have a right to a safe workplace. It is a fact that the federal government has the power to set and regulate workplace safety standards. This is not new.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    So why not continue testing unvaccinated people, and allow them to work as long as the test comes back negative? Why throw a blanket over an entire group, even when the majority of them are perfectly healthy?
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      >So why not continue testing unvaccinated people, and allow them to work as long as the test comes back negative? They can. The US mandate allows unvaccinated workers to either get vaccinated or submit to weekly testing.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > why ignore natural immunity? Why avoid vaccination, after infection? Apparently it's quite beneficial to get vaccinated then.