4 ms·

> It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. The stretch from person A is a better programmer / SW

> It's as if the notion of people being arbitrarily born more or less with a knack for something is evil. The stretch from person A is a better programmer / SW engineer than B to 'thus, person A is innately better' is unnecessary. In my experience, the programmer that spends more time programming is almost always better than the one who does not. You can hate side projects, open-source work, whatever as much as you want, but IME, the programmers that engage in that (and thus have multiple times more actual experience than one who works 9-5) are universally the 10x people. In other words, it's not innate intelligence... it's simple effort and working towards improvement. Now... there are some people that are truly just stellar, and I can attribute perhaps some of this to innate ability, but the difference between mediocre programmer and 10x is typically one of hard work. Between 10x and the extremely rare 100x... well maybe we can talk brain differences. Those programmers are so rare though, it's futile to expect you'd be able to hire them, since there's not enough supply. 10x is good enough.

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
> You can hate side projects, open-source work, whatever as much as you want, but IME, the programmers that engage in that (and thus have multiple times more actual experience than one who works 9-5) are universally the 10x people. The usual correlation-vs-causation disclaimer goes here. How many open source developers spend time on it because they produce good code? I spent quite a bit of time on side projects and helping (as I thought) others with projects that I like. After many years of doing this I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot produce really good code. So rather than being a drain on already overworked maintainers I decided not to bother them anymore. Seeing a few others starting 5-10 years later and quickly outrunning me is quite discouraging, but such is life.
- gavinray 5y ago
  > "I spent quite a bit of time on side projects and helping (as I thought) others with projects that I like. After many years of doing this I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot produce really good code." I have essentially no hobbies outside of programming, and a ton of side projects + OSS contributions in free time (check my GitHub) and I'm still no x10 dev. Who cares if it's "GOOD" code -- did you have fun/did you enjoy it? It surely couldn't have been SHIT code, because you cared even the slightest degree. Statistically, I figure most people writing code don't give a rat's ass and are there to pay rent. "GOOD" is just skewed by the fact that you can also write code so brilliant it changes the course of humanity -- that's quite an upper bound to place on "great" or "10/10" code. ------- On the topic of "x10 Developer/Engineer" and terminology: You know "that 1 genius kid in the grade/school" who is just on a completely different level -- that's been my experience with these "x10" programmers. There's a 17 year old in the Scala Discord (christ, she's legally a CHILD!) that I thought was a 30-something with some higher degree and was teaching me a bunch of stuff. I about spit out my drink when it casually came up in conversation from some older regular that she was 17. Half of what she says I can't understand. That's the sort of thing that comes to mind, for me anyways. Even though I live and breathe code, I think I'd have to be delusional to think I'd ever be as competent as her. I could maybe memorize the amount of KNOWLEDGE she has currently, but there's a depth of understanding that I can't begin to comprehend.
Joeri 5y ago
I think it is more a case of “talent x perspiration = skill”. Everybody can get better by working at it, but some people advance more quickly.
3grdlurker 5y ago
I’m not sure if you described 10x people or one-track minds. I love programming, I’m good at it, but what I do with my free time isn’t necessarily related to programming but is still definitely productive. I read up on economics, politics, maybe write a few essays or short stories, work out, pick up a new skill or something. Somehow being a holistic person is now considered mediocre?
- iammisc 5y ago
  Those with one track minds tend to excel specifically at the one track they dedicate themselves to while failing at other things. There are also those who are good at many things. Both have valuable skills (and both are actually well compensated and highly necessary for companies, IME). But if you want to be that guy who can just crank out code for any problem, then I believe this ability is based on the amount of time you've spent coding, which, for those who have one-track minds, is naturally going to be a lot more than the average programmer. It takes all types. There is no value judgement in my descriptions.

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago

> You can hate side projects, open-source work, whatever as much as you want, but IME, the programmers that engage in that (and thus have multiple times more actual experience than one who works 9-5) are universally the 10x people. The usual correlation-vs-causation disclaimer goes here. How many open source developers spend time on it because they produce good code? I spent quite a bit of time on side projects and helping (as I thought) others with projects that I like. After many years of doing this I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot produce really good code. So rather than being a drain on already overworked maintainers I decided not to bother them anymore. Seeing a few others starting 5-10 years later and quickly outrunning me is quite discouraging, but such is life.

gavinray 5y ago
> "I spent quite a bit of time on side projects and helping (as I thought) others with projects that I like. After many years of doing this I have come to the conclusion that I simply cannot produce really good code." I have essentially no hobbies outside of programming, and a ton of side projects + OSS contributions in free time (check my GitHub) and I'm still no x10 dev. Who cares if it's "GOOD" code -- did you have fun/did you enjoy it? It surely couldn't have been SHIT code, because you cared even the slightest degree. Statistically, I figure most people writing code don't give a rat's ass and are there to pay rent. "GOOD" is just skewed by the fact that you can also write code so brilliant it changes the course of humanity -- that's quite an upper bound to place on "great" or "10/10" code. ------- On the topic of "x10 Developer/Engineer" and terminology: You know "that 1 genius kid in the grade/school" who is just on a completely different level -- that's been my experience with these "x10" programmers. There's a 17 year old in the Scala Discord (christ, she's legally a CHILD!) that I thought was a 30-something with some higher degree and was teaching me a bunch of stuff. I about spit out my drink when it casually came up in conversation from some older regular that she was 17. Half of what she says I can't understand. That's the sort of thing that comes to mind, for me anyways. Even though I live and breathe code, I think I'd have to be delusional to think I'd ever be as competent as her. I could maybe memorize the amount of KNOWLEDGE she has currently, but there's a depth of understanding that I can't begin to comprehend.

Joeri 5y ago

I think it is more a case of “talent x perspiration = skill”. Everybody can get better by working at it, but some people advance more quickly.

3grdlurker 5y ago

I’m not sure if you described 10x people or one-track minds. I love programming, I’m good at it, but what I do with my free time isn’t necessarily related to programming but is still definitely productive. I read up on economics, politics, maybe write a few essays or short stories, work out, pick up a new skill or something. Somehow being a holistic person is now considered mediocre?

iammisc 5y ago
Those with one track minds tend to excel specifically at the one track they dedicate themselves to while failing at other things. There are also those who are good at many things. Both have valuable skills (and both are actually well compensated and highly necessary for companies, IME). But if you want to be that guy who can just crank out code for any problem, then I believe this ability is based on the amount of time you've spent coding, which, for those who have one-track minds, is naturally going to be a lot more than the average programmer. It takes all types. There is no value judgement in my descriptions.