3 ms·
I'm vaccinated, and I even volunteered to participate in phase 1 booster vaccine trials. Articles like this are flamebait. The title is likely wrong, for star
by DannyBee 5y ago
I'm vaccinated, and I even volunteered to participate in phase 1 booster vaccine trials. Articles like this are flamebait. The title is likely wrong, for starters.
At a baseline, naturally generated antibodies/t-cell response almost always targets more than just the spike protein (ie nucleoprotein regions, etc). These often make them effective against a lot more variants, as those regions are much more preserved than the spike protein.
Duplicating this response is the whole goal of the 2nd generation vaccine programs NIAID and others are running - to generate the same kind of response as a backstop against variants (it has a secondary goal of needing less dosage to vaccinate people). We are trying to better mimic the response the human body gives naturally.
Natural response also lasts a long time (in effectiveness), too:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
"Next, we showed that patients (n = 23) who recovered from SARS (the disease associated with SARS-CoV infection) possess long-lasting memory T cells that are reactive to the N protein of SARS-CoV 17 years after the outbreak of SARS in 2003".
17 years.
(Additionally, to the earlier point, lots of people infected with earlier SARS-COV variants appear to have an effective immune response to SARS-COV-2, because the natural generated response targeted preserved-between-viruses regions)
Now, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't get vaccinated if you were infected - in fact, the strongest immunity that is seen from people who were infected and then
vaccinated. This appears to generate a very strong, very effective response.
But this "hunting with a shotgun instead of a sniper rifle" stuff is just stupid. So is citing 2 studies that say different things and saying "therefore i've proven natural immunity is unreliable"
Any real discussion about vaccination vs natural immunity would have to go into CD4/CD8 response, what regions are targeted/preserved in mutations, etc.
IMHO These kinds of articles do a lot more harm than good, because the misinfo in them is easy to discover, and that convinces people even further of conspiracies. They take an area where science is actually trying to figure out the answers (we aren't all that good at understanding the immune response), and pretends we know.
That isn't going to help get people vaccinated.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- FooBarBizBazz 5y agoI'd originally responded to the article's flamebait with flamebait, but forget that; let's focus on the actual science: > Now, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't get vaccinated if you were infected - in fact, the strongest immunity that is seen from people who were infected and then vaccinated. This appears to generate a very strong, very effective response. How does this relate to "Original Antigenic Sin", aka the Hoskins effect? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin It must be that this effect isn't that strong, or else the subsequent vaccination wouldn't do anything? Or is it precisely because the vaccine doesn't have any of the other markers, that the immune system is now forced to learn a new, second response?
- DannyBee 5y agoThe effect can be strong, actually, for a number of possible reasons. Let me start by saying nobody is 100% positive quite yet, but the response is "much larger than expected". I started to write out a long response about b cells and such, but it's easier to read the articles that explain it with prettier pictures then I do: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj2258 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abj2258 The short version of mechanism is: When you are infected, your body preemptively guesses at what variants might occur and makes memory b-cells that can recognize them. When you later are vaccinated, it discovers which ones were "right" and generates an impressive response. Beyond that, in some sense, it makes intrinsic sense - your body really does cost-benefit because of how many foreign bodies it has to deal with anyway - it initially treats it like any other infection, does the simplest, least energy thing it will take to get rid of it, and moves on. When it gets "reinfected" later, it tries a lot harder to not have it happen again because the threat seems higher.