4 ms·

This leads to being stuck with tools which are unpleasant to use and sometimes not suited for what you want to do with them - for example, editing text files as

This leads to being stuck with tools which are unpleasant to use and sometimes not suited for what you want to do with them - for example, editing text files as a beginner. Would it be better if Nginx would have never been written and we'd all use Apache instead? What about Docker never having been written and us having to ship VM images with no tool chain around them? What about JetBrains never creating new IDEs and everyone being stuck with Eclipse or NetBeans? What about no systemd and having to use sysvinit or OpenRC? Okay, perhaps that last one is debatable, due to some valid concerns. If Vim is so powerful, then this power should be embraced and transformed into a software package that's easier to use, be it with nano style hints or simpler shortcuts - Vim isn't good because of its accidental complexity after all! Of course, that might take a few generations, because no one who knows Vim wants to relearn it, whereas the newer people will oftentimes simply resist using it. But my point is that the weaknesses of each software package should be addressed and eventually fixed, either in itself or another to replace it.

ironmagma 5y ago
Any sufficiently capable editors will be complex. Emacs for example is just as hard to learn if not harder than vim. Nano is easier for one simple reason which is that it is not as capable. Could vim be easier? Probably. But it’s still useful and is an archetype. Remember I’m not saying new code should be written in Awk. It’s just useful to know how to use the tools that everyone knows, regardless of whether they should be replaced or improved. The handsaw isn’t perfect or that beginner friendly, but if you refuse to learn to use one because there are other cutting instruments, you’ll probably have a bad time compared to if you didn’t.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  > It’s just useful to know how to use the tools that everyone knows, regardless of whether they should be replaced or improved. This is a perfectly reasonable argument to make and probably reflects the reality of working in the industry pretty well. That said, I'm still stoked to see what people come up with in the next 20 years. Maybe gradual improvements like Neovim tried to do. Or perhaps Vim-like text interaction in VSC or JetBrains IDEs, with all of their plugins and ecosystem. Or maybe something even more grand!
daptaq 5y ago
Vi (rather than vim) should probably be treated more like how most developers know how to use a unix shell, rather than a specific product. Far more than the program that implements it, vi(m) is more relevant as a UI. Granted, it is not idea and goes contrary to the expectations of users who haven't had much experience with it yet, but it is at least for the time being a de-facto standard worth knowing the basics of (and I mean extrem basics, how to enter leave insert mode, how to save how to quit. If you aren't using a real vi, then anything about the normal mode is nice to know).
dustintrex 5y ago
As noted earlier in the thread, that embraced and transformed easier to use version of vim is called Sublime Text. (I actually thought it was a fork, but no, apparently it's just "inspired by".) Vim's power comes from it being 1) text-based, 2) very fast to load and manipulate files, and 3) very fast to use if you are familiar with the syntax. Like many power tools, it's the last part here that's hard, but it's also very hard to fix without affecting one of the other two qualities. For example, Emacs nails points 1 & 3, but is so much slower to load that few people use it as their default $EDITOR, and has a sizable learning curve as well.

ironmagma 5y ago

Any sufficiently capable editors will be complex. Emacs for example is just as hard to learn if not harder than vim. Nano is easier for one simple reason which is that it is not as capable. Could vim be easier? Probably. But it’s still useful and is an archetype. Remember I’m not saying new code should be written in Awk. It’s just useful to know how to use the tools that everyone knows, regardless of whether they should be replaced or improved. The handsaw isn’t perfect or that beginner friendly, but if you refuse to learn to use one because there are other cutting instruments, you’ll probably have a bad time compared to if you didn’t.

KronisLV 5y ago
> It’s just useful to know how to use the tools that everyone knows, regardless of whether they should be replaced or improved. This is a perfectly reasonable argument to make and probably reflects the reality of working in the industry pretty well. That said, I'm still stoked to see what people come up with in the next 20 years. Maybe gradual improvements like Neovim tried to do. Or perhaps Vim-like text interaction in VSC or JetBrains IDEs, with all of their plugins and ecosystem. Or maybe something even more grand!

daptaq 5y ago

Vi (rather than vim) should probably be treated more like how most developers know how to use a unix shell, rather than a specific product. Far more than the program that implements it, vi(m) is more relevant as a UI. Granted, it is not idea and goes contrary to the expectations of users who haven't had much experience with it yet, but it is at least for the time being a de-facto standard worth knowing the basics of (and I mean extrem basics, how to enter leave insert mode, how to save how to quit. If you aren't using a real vi, then anything about the normal mode is nice to know).

dustintrex 5y ago

As noted earlier in the thread, that embraced and transformed easier to use version of vim is called Sublime Text. (I actually thought it was a fork, but no, apparently it's just "inspired by".) Vim's power comes from it being 1) text-based, 2) very fast to load and manipulate files, and 3) very fast to use if you are familiar with the syntax. Like many power tools, it's the last part here that's hard, but it's also very hard to fix without affecting one of the other two qualities. For example, Emacs nails points 1 & 3, but is so much slower to load that few people use it as their default $EDITOR, and has a sizable learning curve as well.