10 ms·

Incompetent people sliding by is hardly limited to programming

by asdfman123 5y ago

the_only_law 5y ago
Yeah but look at the ease of breaking in + how much it pays (even in worse jobs). Its probably the best value.
- asdfman123 5y ago
  I have no idea how someone totally incompetent could break through. Like, what do they say in the interviews? Or do they just memorize the answers?
  - nicoffeine 5y ago
    > Or do they just memorize the answers Yes, and guess where they learned it from? Regurgitation and handing in "something" on time can pretty easily get you a degree, even at a top tier school. That will get you further at most organizations than a resume with completed software projects and no college degree. Once you are in, it's easy to do enough to avoid getting fired. No one wants to take the blame for a bad hire. After a few years, they're a mid-level engineer and maybe they make good looking diagrams. They answer all of their emails, they show up for the meetings that actual engineers don't want to attend. They have a purpose and fill a role, even if they still fundamentally don't understand what's going on. No matter where you go, or how high up the chain you get, they will be on every team and in every meeting. What they lack in technical understanding they cover with political and social skills. Which also means they will be your management.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- searchableguy 5y ago
  I think you are overestimating the ease of breaking in. Out of 800 job posts in the ask HN hiring thread this month, only 2-3 mentioned they are willing to hire junior devs. This is a biased data set of course but you will see similar patterns across the board. Even people with degrees, it's getting hard to break in because most companies have realized that hiring senior developers is better value for money. In tech, you are also constantly tested regardless of how many years of experience you have. This doesn't happen in other field at the same frequency so you don't get to slack off if you want to switch jobs.
  - nicoffeine 5y ago
    I agree generally, but I think the reason executives lean on seniority is because they have no confidence in their own team to make a good technical hire, or spending a lot time/money/effort on the hiring process isn't a priority. They assume if someone has had a job for a few years, that they can't be that bad. Nobody ever got fired for hiring a former FAANG employee. They started adding tests after this approach failed, and they're making the same mistake in a different way. Having the motivation to grind leetcode is not the same as having the motivation to finish a software project. You'll end up with a lot of people who really want the money, and will suffer any number of hoops, but in the end they really hate the work.
auslegung 5y ago
I can't reply to your most recent response, so I'm replying here instead. You have gone from saying - "you actually have to be smart to be a good developer", to - "Incompetent people sliding by is hardly limited to programming", to - "I have no idea how someone totally incompetent could break through". The original statement was not "totally incompetent people can break through". The original statement was "Are developers the new blue-collar workers?" And your response assumes that blue-collar workers are not smart. In fact, it seems like you think blue collar workers are "totally incompetent" since you created an equivalency between "blue collar workers", "not smart", then "incompetent", and lastly "totally incompetent." That is incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.

Incompetent people sliding by is hardly limited to programming

the_only_law 5y ago

Yeah but look at the ease of breaking in + how much it pays (even in worse jobs). Its probably the best value.

asdfman123 5y ago
I have no idea how someone totally incompetent could break through. Like, what do they say in the interviews? Or do they just memorize the answers?
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  > Or do they just memorize the answers Yes, and guess where they learned it from? Regurgitation and handing in "something" on time can pretty easily get you a degree, even at a top tier school. That will get you further at most organizations than a resume with completed software projects and no college degree. Once you are in, it's easy to do enough to avoid getting fired. No one wants to take the blame for a bad hire. After a few years, they're a mid-level engineer and maybe they make good looking diagrams. They answer all of their emails, they show up for the meetings that actual engineers don't want to attend. They have a purpose and fill a role, even if they still fundamentally don't understand what's going on. No matter where you go, or how high up the chain you get, they will be on every team and in every meeting. What they lack in technical understanding they cover with political and social skills. Which also means they will be your management.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
searchableguy 5y ago
I think you are overestimating the ease of breaking in. Out of 800 job posts in the ask HN hiring thread this month, only 2-3 mentioned they are willing to hire junior devs. This is a biased data set of course but you will see similar patterns across the board. Even people with degrees, it's getting hard to break in because most companies have realized that hiring senior developers is better value for money. In tech, you are also constantly tested regardless of how many years of experience you have. This doesn't happen in other field at the same frequency so you don't get to slack off if you want to switch jobs.
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  I agree generally, but I think the reason executives lean on seniority is because they have no confidence in their own team to make a good technical hire, or spending a lot time/money/effort on the hiring process isn't a priority. They assume if someone has had a job for a few years, that they can't be that bad. Nobody ever got fired for hiring a former FAANG employee. They started adding tests after this approach failed, and they're making the same mistake in a different way. Having the motivation to grind leetcode is not the same as having the motivation to finish a software project. You'll end up with a lot of people who really want the money, and will suffer any number of hoops, but in the end they really hate the work.

auslegung 5y ago

I can't reply to your most recent response, so I'm replying here instead. You have gone from saying - "you actually have to be smart to be a good developer", to - "Incompetent people sliding by is hardly limited to programming", to - "I have no idea how someone totally incompetent could break through". The original statement was not "totally incompetent people can break through". The original statement was "Are developers the new blue-collar workers?" And your response assumes that blue-collar workers are not smart. In fact, it seems like you think blue collar workers are "totally incompetent" since you created an equivalency between "blue collar workers", "not smart", then "incompetent", and lastly "totally incompetent." That is incredibly ignorant and prejudiced.