4 ms·

It's very different constitutionally: the German situation is that the supreme court holds that EU constitutional supremacy is valid, but must not contradict th

by chalst 5y ago

It's very different constitutionally: the German situation is that the supreme court holds that EU constitutional supremacy is valid, but must not contradict the basic law. The Polish situation is that the supreme court was pushed to one side in a constitutionally dubious gambit in order to declare constitutional supremacy invalid. The German situation is weird, but it's not essentially different that a government might agree to an international treaty and then take its time over passing legislation to conform to it that isn't unambiguously identical to what it agreed it would do.

Woodi 5y ago
> It's very different constitutionally: the German situation is that the supreme court holds that EU constitutional supremacy is valid, but must not contradict the basic law. So you are saying, in that description, that German internal law is not superior ? Looks quite opposite to me, German juries can over-decide EU juries :> > The Polish situation is [...] So Germans do PR bla bla bla but override when convenient but Poland in same situation is "different" ?? Check your logic mate.
- chalst 5y ago
  I'm British, with the snippet of legal training appropriate to a one-time would-be chartered accountant, and I'm acutely aware that the German legal tradition is hugely different to the British one, so while i have taken care to understand what follows, I am not an expert and may be mistaken. There is no error in my logic, but the subtleties are tricky. Constitutions are two different things: they are literal agreements, with a semantics, and they are a state of affairs, that enforces the agreement. In countries where the supreme authority is a court that has a high level of public trust, as in Germany, it's common to forget about the latter part of the arrangement and take the constitution to be the literal agreement. Some other countries, like Britain which does not even have a single document that codifies the agreement, this is not forgotten. My understanding of the matter is that the German supreme court is essentially saying that it accepts the state of affairs has changed, i.e. it is not the only court that gets to decide matters because of constitutional supremacy, without saying that it will agree with EU law if it is asked to decide on matters. What is being called #polexit is that a body that the Polish government claims has constitutionl authority has effectively rejected the state-of-affairs part of the constitution. In fact, the situation is constitutionally dubious: the body the government formed to do this does not appear to have the power the governement claims it does according to Poland's constitutional law. This is a quite different situation. My guess is that the Polish government will not succeed in their strategy, but they have undoubtedly created a huge crisis, both in Poland and the EU.
  - Woodi 5y ago
    Listen, you keep to arguing that Germans can decide that EU law is sometimes insane - they are overriding so their law have more power. Pretty clear. Literal law can be and usually is missinterpreted. Also, what Poland just do was: in 2005 our juries decided superiority of our Constitution and we only continue what was said earlier Period. No some imaginary #polexit or "dubious claims" as you judge yourself. Or maybe you are brainwashed that way or wishes this to be true. And polish jury that do exactly this in 2005 is in EU jury institution now. An that is already centuries old problem in Poland: our people, usually for personal gain, decide to harm Poland. Check history, if you like. And crisis ? Mate, "stop drinking Cool-Aid" or how they say that things. EU trying to harm few member countries and that is a problem. Not sticking to country sovereignty. And if EU want federation and others do not want this (yet) then that also not a crisis but putting assholes into place. Becouse they do not work for common all european member states good. Funny note: you yourself ACKed that EU sometimes make INSANE law, full agree on that :) But why only Germans and nobody else is qualified to state obvious insanity of EU (law in that case) ? You somehow belive in well-disproved Germans superiority ? :) Looks like kinda lack in humor abilities is rather a problem then positive trait :)
    - chalst 5y ago
      Both your charactisation of what I said and many of your guesses about my beliefs about what's best for EU member countries are quite wrong.

by chalst 5y ago

Woodi 5y ago

> It's very different constitutionally: the German situation is that the supreme court holds that EU constitutional supremacy is valid, but must not contradict the basic law. So you are saying, in that description, that German internal law is not superior ? Looks quite opposite to me, German juries can over-decide EU juries :> > The Polish situation is [...] So Germans do PR bla bla bla but override when convenient but Poland in same situation is "different" ?? Check your logic mate.

chalst 5y ago
I'm British, with the snippet of legal training appropriate to a one-time would-be chartered accountant, and I'm acutely aware that the German legal tradition is hugely different to the British one, so while i have taken care to understand what follows, I am not an expert and may be mistaken. There is no error in my logic, but the subtleties are tricky. Constitutions are two different things: they are literal agreements, with a semantics, and they are a state of affairs, that enforces the agreement. In countries where the supreme authority is a court that has a high level of public trust, as in Germany, it's common to forget about the latter part of the arrangement and take the constitution to be the literal agreement. Some other countries, like Britain which does not even have a single document that codifies the agreement, this is not forgotten. My understanding of the matter is that the German supreme court is essentially saying that it accepts the state of affairs has changed, i.e. it is not the only court that gets to decide matters because of constitutional supremacy, without saying that it will agree with EU law if it is asked to decide on matters. What is being called #polexit is that a body that the Polish government claims has constitutionl authority has effectively rejected the state-of-affairs part of the constitution. In fact, the situation is constitutionally dubious: the body the government formed to do this does not appear to have the power the governement claims it does according to Poland's constitutional law. This is a quite different situation. My guess is that the Polish government will not succeed in their strategy, but they have undoubtedly created a huge crisis, both in Poland and the EU.
- Woodi 5y ago
  Listen, you keep to arguing that Germans can decide that EU law is sometimes insane - they are overriding so their law have more power. Pretty clear. Literal law can be and usually is missinterpreted. Also, what Poland just do was: in 2005 our juries decided superiority of our Constitution and we only continue what was said earlier Period. No some imaginary #polexit or "dubious claims" as you judge yourself. Or maybe you are brainwashed that way or wishes this to be true. And polish jury that do exactly this in 2005 is in EU jury institution now. An that is already centuries old problem in Poland: our people, usually for personal gain, decide to harm Poland. Check history, if you like. And crisis ? Mate, "stop drinking Cool-Aid" or how they say that things. EU trying to harm few member countries and that is a problem. Not sticking to country sovereignty. And if EU want federation and others do not want this (yet) then that also not a crisis but putting assholes into place. Becouse they do not work for common all european member states good. Funny note: you yourself ACKed that EU sometimes make INSANE law, full agree on that :) But why only Germans and nobody else is qualified to state obvious insanity of EU (law in that case) ? You somehow belive in well-disproved Germans superiority ? :) Looks like kinda lack in humor abilities is rather a problem then positive trait :)
  - chalst 5y ago
    Both your charactisation of what I said and many of your guesses about my beliefs about what's best for EU member countries are quite wrong.