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So there's really two problems that are being conflated in the phrase "no code": 1. We need a richer library of standardized DSLs for various real-world enviro

So there's really two problems that are being conflated in the phrase "no code": 1. We need a richer library of standardized DSLs for various real-world environments, where the power of a full PL is perhaps too dangerous without excessive training. 2. The method of specifying algorithms in plain text (i.e. "code") is not intuitive or unapproachable for large numbers of people who could otherwise benefit greatly from the ability to "program" the tools they use.

sokoloff 5y ago
My line of thinking on this is “what makes Excel have the combination of simplicity to start and ability/power to scale to fairly complicated workbooks and how to bring that to other fields, including manufacturing?” We could do a lot worse than excel in a lot of areas I think.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  Excel VBA and Power Query are regular programming languages. Nothing in particular has been solved by Excel, it's just that the languages that are built in are disdained by software engineers so people assume there's something special about them. It's cultural. You can write a Lisp in VBA if you want. Microsoft's attempt at low/no code appears to be Power Automate, and it's awful (imo).
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I’d wager that 99% of all excel workbooks in the world contain no VBA. Excel’s market power is in what you can do in the formulas, interactive exploration, and incremental progress not in the (fairly awful dev-experience) VBA.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      That's true, but the point is, they haven't created anything that bridges the two worlds. They are just there, in coexistence. Well, then again, I also think you are also falling into the trap of underestimating the amount of VBA code, and businesses built on it, because of your cultural disdain for it.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        I don’t have any disdain for Excel or VBA. It’s clearly hugely useful, successful, and valuable. I’ve written some VBA; the DX is terrible, but I have massive respect for what they’ve accomplished and I readily reach for it when it’s the right tool. I wrote some powershell for a manufacturing site a few weeks ago. Didn’t enjoy doing it, but it was the right horse for that course.
wvenable 5y ago
#2 is the same as arguing that anyone can be a great novel writer because what prevents people from doing that is writing words. So instead of writing, great novels can be created by dragging and dropping story elements, plot points, and characters! #1 is a different but similar problem. "If only language itself was simpler, people would have an easier time writing novels."

sokoloff 5y ago

My line of thinking on this is “what makes Excel have the combination of simplicity to start and ability/power to scale to fairly complicated workbooks and how to bring that to other fields, including manufacturing?” We could do a lot worse than excel in a lot of areas I think.

perl4ever 5y ago
Excel VBA and Power Query are regular programming languages. Nothing in particular has been solved by Excel, it's just that the languages that are built in are disdained by software engineers so people assume there's something special about them. It's cultural. You can write a Lisp in VBA if you want. Microsoft's attempt at low/no code appears to be Power Automate, and it's awful (imo).
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I’d wager that 99% of all excel workbooks in the world contain no VBA. Excel’s market power is in what you can do in the formulas, interactive exploration, and incremental progress not in the (fairly awful dev-experience) VBA.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    That's true, but the point is, they haven't created anything that bridges the two worlds. They are just there, in coexistence. Well, then again, I also think you are also falling into the trap of underestimating the amount of VBA code, and businesses built on it, because of your cultural disdain for it.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      I don’t have any disdain for Excel or VBA. It’s clearly hugely useful, successful, and valuable. I’ve written some VBA; the DX is terrible, but I have massive respect for what they’ve accomplished and I readily reach for it when it’s the right tool. I wrote some powershell for a manufacturing site a few weeks ago. Didn’t enjoy doing it, but it was the right horse for that course.

wvenable 5y ago

#2 is the same as arguing that anyone can be a great novel writer because what prevents people from doing that is writing words. So instead of writing, great novels can be created by dragging and dropping story elements, plot points, and characters! #1 is a different but similar problem. "If only language itself was simpler, people would have an easier time writing novels."