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2021 update: * The Zig Software Foundation now exists * My total income including ZSF Salary, GitHub Sponsors, Patreon is now about 4000 USD per month. Legall

2021 update: * The Zig Software Foundation now exists * My total income including ZSF Salary, GitHub Sponsors, Patreon is now about 4000 USD per month. Legally, my ZSF salary is 160K per year, but I have been consistently donating it back to the org since frankly we just don't have that much revenue at this point in time, and I've been prioritizing getting that money to other Zig contributors. * The $150/month to Rich Felker now comes from ZSF instead of my personal account. * Zig 0.5.0, 0.6.0, 0.7.0, 0.8.0 have all been released. 0.9.0 is coming soon. * I no longer really have an opinion about V; it's been two years since I paid any attention to it.

3pt14159 5y ago
Sorry, I'm not American so this may be a dumb question, but why set your salary to $160k instead of what it actually is? Does it have to do with US tax law or non-profit org law?
- infogulch 5y ago
  One difference: you have control over when you give yourself a pay raise instead of having to go through the org chart/board. May not be the most efficient strategy with taxes though.
- pixelmonkey 5y ago
  This is just me taking a guess, but one benefit to him setting a real salary and donating the money back is that for the purpose of credit checks and consumer loans (e.g. a home mortgage for a primary residence), he can qualify for appropriate amounts. It also appropriately models what's happening: he's paying himself a "market salary" (in quotes because his market value is probably much higher than that, but I'm speaking relatively to a "stipend salary" here) and he is working full-time on the project, but donating back the portion he doesn't need to spend on disposable income (due to his own personal frugality). Actually quite an admirable way to do it -- hopefully he has figured out some way to not suffer extra taxes from that setup.
  - TAForObvReasons 5y ago
    He is definitely paying extra taxes. Donations don't reduce social security and medicare tax liability, and depending on the arrangement either he or the foundation is paying for the "other half" of the tax
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      But he will also qualify for a higher SS payout since his income is higher, if my understanding is correct.
      - hawk_ 5y ago
        yes that's one of the reasons in some countries if you have the ability to set your own salary you aren't allowed to take salary and instead must set yourself up as a "freelancer".
      - mwint 5y ago
        Never really thought about it. I’d love for someone with knowledge to weigh in on this: Does it ever make sense to pay more SS tax, based on a present-value analysis? I guess it’s really three questions: 1) For each dollar to SS taxes, do I expect to get more than a dollar from SS in the future? 2) Same question as 1, but inflation-adjusted future dollars. 3) If the expected return is positive, does it beat reasonable market returns? Guessing the answer depends on age, income levels, etc. I just don’t know how to do the math myself.
        TAForObvReasons 5y ago
        (not a financial professional, not advice) You need at least 40 "credits" over your working life to be eligible for social security benefits. Each calendar year you can earn up to 4 "credits", which in 2021 corresponds to $1470 in earnings that are taxed. So it definitely makes sense to earn the credits every year e.g. $6000 in 2021. SSDI looks at the last 10 years of earnings if you're older than 30, which still incentivizes hitting that minimum target. As for the actual income in retirement, that is a complex subject. For example, the optimal money move is to continue working to full retirement age, but you may want to take the early retirement option (even if the payout is smaller) to enjoy the extra healthy years.
- TAForObvReasons 5y ago
  There are two benefits to showing a higher income on paper: 1) Some situations like mortgage applications and child adoption will require some sort of income verification. It's a lot harder when you aren't showing as much top-line income. 2) If the project goes south and the author has to find another job, showing a "market rate" salary is better than the true rate (sadly many people and companies still talk in terms of percentage increases)
  - short12 5y ago
    How would a future employer know what his salary was?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      He could show them W2's from the current employer.
      - johncessna 5y ago
        I think the poster was probably asking why anyone would tell a future employer this information. Employers should pay what they value the position at, not what someone else was paying for it.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Would you refuse an employer that wanted a past W2 as a non-negotiable?
        loeg 5y ago
        Yes.
        conductr 5y ago
        I feel like there’s a bit of trust involved in the whole hiring process. If they think I’m lying and can’t pay me what I want, then why do they believe anything I said during the interviews. I don’t want to work with people that think lying to them after a few conversations.
- dilap 5y ago
  It's also just good optics. "$160K is a reasonable developer salary." Even if in practice it's not how they want to use the money right now, it's setting expectations correctly.
- johncessna 5y ago
  It really depends on how the business entity is set up. The line between what your salary is and what the business makes blurs. There are tax law implications, but it's less about tax avoidance and more about not screwing yourself. Depending on the business structure, one reason I know for setting a salary is because you're forced to. Certain taxes in the US (FICA) are based off of your income. They don't want you to set a salary of $1, for example, and then pay yourself via dividends to avoid taxes. The IRS states it has to be 'reasonable.'
- hijodelsol 5y ago
  I don't know if this applies to the States but at least in some European countries if you ever move to another country you are taxed for what you would have been expected to pay in taxes based on the profit the company made in the last years. Paying yourself a high salary (as long as it's reasonable, so as not to arouse suspicion of hidden profit distributions) allows the business entity to not make any profit on paper and therefore allows you to move to another country without having to pay this "exit tax". Disclaimer: This is my understanding of the situation, I'm neither a lawyer nor a tax professional and this is not financial advice.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    But you pay income tax on the income .
13415 5y ago
I've been following V for a few years now and it's pretty awesome. Development is very active.
- turminal 5y ago
  ... and developers are very clueless. And just about nothing works as advertised.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - forgotpwd16 5y ago
    Can you elaborate or provide any references for those statements? What in [0] doesn't work as advertised? Also, something I'ld like to know that would otherwise be really dishonest on V devs' part, is their memory management innovative? Oortmerssen, creator of Lobster language, said that in their Discord they mentioned[1] that the memory model was taken from Lobster. [0]: https://github.com/vlang/v#key-features-of-v https://github.com/vlang/v#key-features-of-v [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514198
dgb23 5y ago
This is inspiring and refreshing.
inside65 5y ago
Could you clarify (I'm just confused) how is your income 4K a month but you say to make 160K a year from ZSF. Is the significant difference all donated back?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Shadonototra 5y ago
> * I no longer really have an opinion about V; it's been two years since I paid any attention to it. Good to see that you finally got rid of your jealousy I will be honest, seeing everyone getting "mad" at V project owner was very "dishonest" move, to stay polite and within HN 's rules
- bobthebuilders 5y ago
  > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
  - Shadonototra 5y ago
    Yes it is hard to balance, the V's hate episode on Hackernews is the perfect example, a lot was going against the rules and yet "allowed", including personal attacks towards V's author, because it just is the nature of discussions in general, i guess
    - bobthebuilders 5y ago
      I think HN should be free to call out scams and bullshit.
      - Shadonototra 5y ago
        scams? so far V is the only one that delivered on their promises, a safe, self hosted language that compiles super quick i'm yet to see self hosted zig or a fast zig compiler so far zig has been only blabla, while V delivered

3pt14159 5y ago

Sorry, I'm not American so this may be a dumb question, but why set your salary to $160k instead of what it actually is? Does it have to do with US tax law or non-profit org law?

infogulch 5y ago
One difference: you have control over when you give yourself a pay raise instead of having to go through the org chart/board. May not be the most efficient strategy with taxes though.
pixelmonkey 5y ago
This is just me taking a guess, but one benefit to him setting a real salary and donating the money back is that for the purpose of credit checks and consumer loans (e.g. a home mortgage for a primary residence), he can qualify for appropriate amounts. It also appropriately models what's happening: he's paying himself a "market salary" (in quotes because his market value is probably much higher than that, but I'm speaking relatively to a "stipend salary" here) and he is working full-time on the project, but donating back the portion he doesn't need to spend on disposable income (due to his own personal frugality). Actually quite an admirable way to do it -- hopefully he has figured out some way to not suffer extra taxes from that setup.
- TAForObvReasons 5y ago
  He is definitely paying extra taxes. Donations don't reduce social security and medicare tax liability, and depending on the arrangement either he or the foundation is paying for the "other half" of the tax
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    But he will also qualify for a higher SS payout since his income is higher, if my understanding is correct.
    - hawk_ 5y ago
      yes that's one of the reasons in some countries if you have the ability to set your own salary you aren't allowed to take salary and instead must set yourself up as a "freelancer".
    - mwint 5y ago
      Never really thought about it. I’d love for someone with knowledge to weigh in on this: Does it ever make sense to pay more SS tax, based on a present-value analysis? I guess it’s really three questions: 1) For each dollar to SS taxes, do I expect to get more than a dollar from SS in the future? 2) Same question as 1, but inflation-adjusted future dollars. 3) If the expected return is positive, does it beat reasonable market returns? Guessing the answer depends on age, income levels, etc. I just don’t know how to do the math myself.
      - TAForObvReasons 5y ago
        (not a financial professional, not advice) You need at least 40 "credits" over your working life to be eligible for social security benefits. Each calendar year you can earn up to 4 "credits", which in 2021 corresponds to $1470 in earnings that are taxed. So it definitely makes sense to earn the credits every year e.g. $6000 in 2021. SSDI looks at the last 10 years of earnings if you're older than 30, which still incentivizes hitting that minimum target. As for the actual income in retirement, that is a complex subject. For example, the optimal money move is to continue working to full retirement age, but you may want to take the early retirement option (even if the payout is smaller) to enjoy the extra healthy years.
TAForObvReasons 5y ago
There are two benefits to showing a higher income on paper: 1) Some situations like mortgage applications and child adoption will require some sort of income verification. It's a lot harder when you aren't showing as much top-line income. 2) If the project goes south and the author has to find another job, showing a "market rate" salary is better than the true rate (sadly many people and companies still talk in terms of percentage increases)
- short12 5y ago
  How would a future employer know what his salary was?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    He could show them W2's from the current employer.
    - johncessna 5y ago
      I think the poster was probably asking why anyone would tell a future employer this information. Employers should pay what they value the position at, not what someone else was paying for it.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Would you refuse an employer that wanted a past W2 as a non-negotiable?
        loeg 5y ago
        Yes.
        conductr 5y ago
        I feel like there’s a bit of trust involved in the whole hiring process. If they think I’m lying and can’t pay me what I want, then why do they believe anything I said during the interviews. I don’t want to work with people that think lying to them after a few conversations.
dilap 5y ago
It's also just good optics. "$160K is a reasonable developer salary." Even if in practice it's not how they want to use the money right now, it's setting expectations correctly.
johncessna 5y ago
It really depends on how the business entity is set up. The line between what your salary is and what the business makes blurs. There are tax law implications, but it's less about tax avoidance and more about not screwing yourself. Depending on the business structure, one reason I know for setting a salary is because you're forced to. Certain taxes in the US (FICA) are based off of your income. They don't want you to set a salary of $1, for example, and then pay yourself via dividends to avoid taxes. The IRS states it has to be 'reasonable.'
hijodelsol 5y ago
I don't know if this applies to the States but at least in some European countries if you ever move to another country you are taxed for what you would have been expected to pay in taxes based on the profit the company made in the last years. Paying yourself a high salary (as long as it's reasonable, so as not to arouse suspicion of hidden profit distributions) allows the business entity to not make any profit on paper and therefore allows you to move to another country without having to pay this "exit tax". Disclaimer: This is my understanding of the situation, I'm neither a lawyer nor a tax professional and this is not financial advice.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  But you pay income tax on the income .

13415 5y ago

I've been following V for a few years now and it's pretty awesome. Development is very active.

turminal 5y ago
... and developers are very clueless. And just about nothing works as advertised.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- forgotpwd16 5y ago
  Can you elaborate or provide any references for those statements? What in [0] doesn't work as advertised? Also, something I'ld like to know that would otherwise be really dishonest on V devs' part, is their memory management innovative? Oortmerssen, creator of Lobster language, said that in their Discord they mentioned[1] that the memory model was taken from Lobster. [0]: https://github.com/vlang/v#key-features-of-v https://github.com/vlang/v#key-features-of-v [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514198

dgb23 5y ago

This is inspiring and refreshing.

inside65 5y ago

Could you clarify (I'm just confused) how is your income 4K a month but you say to make 160K a year from ZSF. Is the significant difference all donated back?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Shadonototra 5y ago

> * I no longer really have an opinion about V; it's been two years since I paid any attention to it. Good to see that you finally got rid of your jealousy I will be honest, seeing everyone getting "mad" at V project owner was very "dishonest" move, to stay polite and within HN 's rules

bobthebuilders 5y ago
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
- Shadonototra 5y ago
  Yes it is hard to balance, the V's hate episode on Hackernews is the perfect example, a lot was going against the rules and yet "allowed", including personal attacks towards V's author, because it just is the nature of discussions in general, i guess
  - bobthebuilders 5y ago
    I think HN should be free to call out scams and bullshit.
    - Shadonototra 5y ago
      scams? so far V is the only one that delivered on their promises, a safe, self hosted language that compiles super quick i'm yet to see self hosted zig or a fast zig compiler so far zig has been only blabla, while V delivered