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Why Computer Science Doesn't Matter

22 points by swannodette 15y ago

Jach 15y ago
tl;dr: Teach programming with DrScheme with the application being simple math/physics homework most students would just use a calculator for, but can now sort of explore the contrived problems with images instead of pure numbers, and don't try to teach CS. The early stats on AP test takers are misleading. It accounts for the Calculus AB + Calculus BC. Taking just the BC number, whose difficulty is probably closer to that of the AP CS A test (the B got wiped out 'cause hardly anyone took it), there were only 78,998 takers in 2010. While still a lot more than the CS test, it's not grossly larger by an order of magnitude as initially suggested. (Edit: I say the BC test is probably closer in difficulty based on my own experience. I took the CS B test when it was around and only got a 3, but got a 5 on the Calc BC test.)
- camperman 15y ago
  A less cynical tl;dr might be: students of all ages can discover that algebra can be a form of "moving math" that can be used to program their own video games. Once they grasp this, they tend to find out lots of stuff on their own - for fun. This gives them a vast leg up when it comes to college. I've used DrScheme to teach the poorest of poor kids this stuff and it works stupendously.
  - Jach 15y ago
    Of course. I'll agree anything that gets kids to self-teach is good, as that's the real problem of education (in other words, no desire to learn for any reason), and this approach apparently has experimental backing from you and the paper. I just don't think this should replace standard CS, but rather be something separate; call it something like Elementary Programming, and probably encourage it more than standard CS.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
Clever title, simultaneously inflamatory linkbait, or accurate, depending on how you read it. The verbal version of the duck/rabbit or old/young woman drawings. The accurate version: Computer Science Doesn't Matter to Most Students, but Should and Could, and Here's Why and How
NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago
'Math' has long had its own field. It is by a wide margin the oldest, deepest, most solid, most general subject in academics, a real crown jewel of civilization. 'Computer science' didn't want to be just part of math and wanted their own field. They got it. Now they are stucko: Students take the computer science (CS) courses mostly just to learn programming mostly just to get jobs. There are problems here since the exact list of buzz words and acronyms the employers want keeps changing. For the 'science' part, they've had a tough time finding much that is significant. As they look for significance, and solid tools and techniques, they start to return to math but there come in poorly prepared and behind and make a mess. So, research computer science has wanted to hijack math, and now in the article high school computer science wants to hijack math. CS: Make it on your own. You've long had some of the best funding in academics, and the most students. So, go for it. And, quit trying to hijack math.
- baddox 15y ago
  Do you have a source that supports you claim that CS has some of the best funding in academics and the most students? That doesn't seem likely to me. As for the academic relationship between math and computer science, I don't see it as any different than the relationship between math and physics. Physics and computer science students both have to take lots of math courses, but I wouldn't consider either to be a subset or focus within mathematics. All formal mathematics is founded on logic and discrete mathematics, and you could easily argue that logic and discrete mathematics are the realm of computer science. You could just as easily argue that mathematics is founded on computer science as you could argue the inverse.
  - NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago
    "Do you have a source that supports you claim that CS has some of the best funding in academics and the most students? That doesn't seem likely to me." When I was a Big Ten prof, looked that way to me. From MIT, about all I hear about is the CS. Then some AI. Then some control theory. Then some optimization. For the math, is the department still there? When I was in grad school, the CS and EE departments were big deals, with lots of students and profs, and the math department hardly had the lights on. For students, the CS departments get lots that just want to learn programming to get jobs; the math departments nearly never get any such students. Physics tries to do math, but how badly they do it, and how they insist that students work effectively with physics with really bad math, is a solid part of the 'culture'. E.g., there is the Feynman statement about a particle uniformly distributed everywhere; sorry, Dick, no such can exist! There is also the joke, not far wrong, that in an appropriate math book, can do all the physics just in the footnotes. Net, nearly all the challenge of mathematical or theoretical physics is in the math, just the math. For such math, the math departments are way ahead; they hold all the big cards but refuse to play them! Your statement about logic and discrete math meaning that math should be part of computer science is like saying that painting in fine arts should be part of chemistry. Yes, math can be regarded as the 'logic' of just pushing symbols around, and maybe eventually more of such research will be automated via computers, but so far the symbol pushing doesn't have the real work. Or the joke is, the difference between algebra and analysis is that algebra is just pushing symbols around and analysis has some real ideas behind it. It's the ideas that are important.
aidenn0 15y ago
Unless the AP CS test has changed significantly since I took it, it was a worthless test. No college I applied to accepted it for credit or placement, which is the whole point of AP tests.

22 points by swannodette 15y ago

Jach 15y ago

tl;dr: Teach programming with DrScheme with the application being simple math/physics homework most students would just use a calculator for, but can now sort of explore the contrived problems with images instead of pure numbers, and don't try to teach CS. The early stats on AP test takers are misleading. It accounts for the Calculus AB + Calculus BC. Taking just the BC number, whose difficulty is probably closer to that of the AP CS A test (the B got wiped out 'cause hardly anyone took it), there were only 78,998 takers in 2010. While still a lot more than the CS test, it's not grossly larger by an order of magnitude as initially suggested. (Edit: I say the BC test is probably closer in difficulty based on my own experience. I took the CS B test when it was around and only got a 3, but got a 5 on the Calc BC test.)

camperman 15y ago
A less cynical tl;dr might be: students of all ages can discover that algebra can be a form of "moving math" that can be used to program their own video games. Once they grasp this, they tend to find out lots of stuff on their own - for fun. This gives them a vast leg up when it comes to college. I've used DrScheme to teach the poorest of poor kids this stuff and it works stupendously.
- Jach 15y ago
  Of course. I'll agree anything that gets kids to self-teach is good, as that's the real problem of education (in other words, no desire to learn for any reason), and this approach apparently has experimental backing from you and the paper. I just don't think this should replace standard CS, but rather be something separate; call it something like Elementary Programming, and probably encourage it more than standard CS.

SkyMarshal 15y ago

Clever title, simultaneously inflamatory linkbait, or accurate, depending on how you read it. The verbal version of the duck/rabbit or old/young woman drawings. The accurate version: Computer Science Doesn't Matter to Most Students, but Should and Could, and Here's Why and How

NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago

'Math' has long had its own field. It is by a wide margin the oldest, deepest, most solid, most general subject in academics, a real crown jewel of civilization. 'Computer science' didn't want to be just part of math and wanted their own field. They got it. Now they are stucko: Students take the computer science (CS) courses mostly just to learn programming mostly just to get jobs. There are problems here since the exact list of buzz words and acronyms the employers want keeps changing. For the 'science' part, they've had a tough time finding much that is significant. As they look for significance, and solid tools and techniques, they start to return to math but there come in poorly prepared and behind and make a mess. So, research computer science has wanted to hijack math, and now in the article high school computer science wants to hijack math. CS: Make it on your own. You've long had some of the best funding in academics, and the most students. So, go for it. And, quit trying to hijack math.

baddox 15y ago
Do you have a source that supports you claim that CS has some of the best funding in academics and the most students? That doesn't seem likely to me. As for the academic relationship between math and computer science, I don't see it as any different than the relationship between math and physics. Physics and computer science students both have to take lots of math courses, but I wouldn't consider either to be a subset or focus within mathematics. All formal mathematics is founded on logic and discrete mathematics, and you could easily argue that logic and discrete mathematics are the realm of computer science. You could just as easily argue that mathematics is founded on computer science as you could argue the inverse.
- NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago
  "Do you have a source that supports you claim that CS has some of the best funding in academics and the most students? That doesn't seem likely to me." When I was a Big Ten prof, looked that way to me. From MIT, about all I hear about is the CS. Then some AI. Then some control theory. Then some optimization. For the math, is the department still there? When I was in grad school, the CS and EE departments were big deals, with lots of students and profs, and the math department hardly had the lights on. For students, the CS departments get lots that just want to learn programming to get jobs; the math departments nearly never get any such students. Physics tries to do math, but how badly they do it, and how they insist that students work effectively with physics with really bad math, is a solid part of the 'culture'. E.g., there is the Feynman statement about a particle uniformly distributed everywhere; sorry, Dick, no such can exist! There is also the joke, not far wrong, that in an appropriate math book, can do all the physics just in the footnotes. Net, nearly all the challenge of mathematical or theoretical physics is in the math, just the math. For such math, the math departments are way ahead; they hold all the big cards but refuse to play them! Your statement about logic and discrete math meaning that math should be part of computer science is like saying that painting in fine arts should be part of chemistry. Yes, math can be regarded as the 'logic' of just pushing symbols around, and maybe eventually more of such research will be automated via computers, but so far the symbol pushing doesn't have the real work. Or the joke is, the difference between algebra and analysis is that algebra is just pushing symbols around and analysis has some real ideas behind it. It's the ideas that are important.

aidenn0 15y ago

Unless the AP CS test has changed significantly since I took it, it was a worthless test. No college I applied to accepted it for credit or placement, which is the whole point of AP tests.