4 ms·

> So, what is no-code? No-code development is perfect for engineers who have zero programming knowledge. It’s based on a visual drag-and-drop user interface, wi

by all2 5y ago

> So, what is no-code? No-code development is perfect for engineers who have zero programming knowledge. It’s based on a visual drag-and-drop user interface, with no hand coding required to reach the end goal. It empowers workers to design solutions they need to overcome the challenges they face every day—without writing a single line of code. In 2019, 84% of enterprises across the US, UK, Canada and Australia had already implemented a low-code development tool or platform to take care of some of their coding needs. This piece is a fluff piece at best. Looks like a "guest blog" entry to advertise for the writer's company [0] The problem with no/low code is it mirrors a DSL for whatever problem being solved. Anything more general becomes a programming language. Maybe my understanding of language is limited? I'd love to be wrong about this. [0] https://www.emnify.com/ https://www.emnify.com/

munro 5y ago
> The problem with no/low code is it mirrors a DSL for whatever problem being solved. Anything more general becomes a programming language. Yes! I've explored visually representing functions, and state machines, but it all feels very limiting compared to written language. I think more research could be done in the visual coding area for expressing thought, because I really want coding to look like something out of neon genesis evangelion--but IDK, written language isn't bound spatially. And in written language, it's so easy to express contradictions, which is an important part of developing a system. I think MC Escher is probably the most advanced research we have in the area of visually representing recursion and contradictions lol.
bob1029 5y ago
> The problem with no/low code is it mirrors a DSL for whatever problem being solved. This is the entire advantage too. If you read this like a hard constraint, your new job is to simply make sure you develop a high-quality model of the problem domain. The rest could be put on the business owners, especially if you can teach them a little bit of SQL (the world's most popular DSL).
- mcguire 5y ago
  SQL: one of the original no-coding means of coding. I wonder how many people in the world are paid specifically to write SQL, fix other people's SQL and deal with all the other issues?
jkhdigital 5y ago
So there's really two problems that are being conflated in the phrase "no code": 1. We need a richer library of standardized DSLs for various real-world environments, where the power of a full PL is perhaps too dangerous without excessive training. 2. The method of specifying algorithms in plain text (i.e. "code") is not intuitive or unapproachable for large numbers of people who could otherwise benefit greatly from the ability to "program" the tools they use.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  My line of thinking on this is “what makes Excel have the combination of simplicity to start and ability/power to scale to fairly complicated workbooks and how to bring that to other fields, including manufacturing?” We could do a lot worse than excel in a lot of areas I think.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    Excel VBA and Power Query are regular programming languages. Nothing in particular has been solved by Excel, it's just that the languages that are built in are disdained by software engineers so people assume there's something special about them. It's cultural. You can write a Lisp in VBA if you want. Microsoft's attempt at low/no code appears to be Power Automate, and it's awful (imo).
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      I’d wager that 99% of all excel workbooks in the world contain no VBA. Excel’s market power is in what you can do in the formulas, interactive exploration, and incremental progress not in the (fairly awful dev-experience) VBA.
      - perl4ever 5y ago
        That's true, but the point is, they haven't created anything that bridges the two worlds. They are just there, in coexistence. Well, then again, I also think you are also falling into the trap of underestimating the amount of VBA code, and businesses built on it, because of your cultural disdain for it.
perl4ever 5y ago
My limited experience with "no/low code" has been that it sacrifices the reuse of logic. I don't understand how that can possibly substitute for programming, because the reuse and composition of logic is the whole point...isn't it? It's also the source of complexity, so just making a visual, drag and drop interface isn't going to make development more accessible, I would think. Less, in that it's more cumbersome and expands visually. My assumption has been that this is an emperor with no clothes that is invariably sold to decision makers who won't use it. But maybe there's more to it?
mcguire 5y ago
It's either a very simple DSL, or it is coding. Complete with debugging and maintenance and all of the other things that make "coding" hard.

by all2 5y ago

munro 5y ago

> The problem with no/low code is it mirrors a DSL for whatever problem being solved. Anything more general becomes a programming language. Yes! I've explored visually representing functions, and state machines, but it all feels very limiting compared to written language. I think more research could be done in the visual coding area for expressing thought, because I really want coding to look like something out of neon genesis evangelion--but IDK, written language isn't bound spatially. And in written language, it's so easy to express contradictions, which is an important part of developing a system. I think MC Escher is probably the most advanced research we have in the area of visually representing recursion and contradictions lol.

bob1029 5y ago

> The problem with no/low code is it mirrors a DSL for whatever problem being solved. This is the entire advantage too. If you read this like a hard constraint, your new job is to simply make sure you develop a high-quality model of the problem domain. The rest could be put on the business owners, especially if you can teach them a little bit of SQL (the world's most popular DSL).

mcguire 5y ago
SQL: one of the original no-coding means of coding. I wonder how many people in the world are paid specifically to write SQL, fix other people's SQL and deal with all the other issues?

jkhdigital 5y ago

So there's really two problems that are being conflated in the phrase "no code": 1. We need a richer library of standardized DSLs for various real-world environments, where the power of a full PL is perhaps too dangerous without excessive training. 2. The method of specifying algorithms in plain text (i.e. "code") is not intuitive or unapproachable for large numbers of people who could otherwise benefit greatly from the ability to "program" the tools they use.

sokoloff 5y ago
My line of thinking on this is “what makes Excel have the combination of simplicity to start and ability/power to scale to fairly complicated workbooks and how to bring that to other fields, including manufacturing?” We could do a lot worse than excel in a lot of areas I think.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  Excel VBA and Power Query are regular programming languages. Nothing in particular has been solved by Excel, it's just that the languages that are built in are disdained by software engineers so people assume there's something special about them. It's cultural. You can write a Lisp in VBA if you want. Microsoft's attempt at low/no code appears to be Power Automate, and it's awful (imo).
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I’d wager that 99% of all excel workbooks in the world contain no VBA. Excel’s market power is in what you can do in the formulas, interactive exploration, and incremental progress not in the (fairly awful dev-experience) VBA.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      That's true, but the point is, they haven't created anything that bridges the two worlds. They are just there, in coexistence. Well, then again, I also think you are also falling into the trap of underestimating the amount of VBA code, and businesses built on it, because of your cultural disdain for it.

perl4ever 5y ago

My limited experience with "no/low code" has been that it sacrifices the reuse of logic. I don't understand how that can possibly substitute for programming, because the reuse and composition of logic is the whole point...isn't it? It's also the source of complexity, so just making a visual, drag and drop interface isn't going to make development more accessible, I would think. Less, in that it's more cumbersome and expands visually. My assumption has been that this is an emperor with no clothes that is invariably sold to decision makers who won't use it. But maybe there's more to it?

mcguire 5y ago

It's either a very simple DSL, or it is coding. Complete with debugging and maintenance and all of the other things that make "coding" hard.