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If that would be considered an issue, it would be the least worrying thing about smartphone addiction. Even if you would want your kids to grow up to become de

If that would be considered an issue, it would be the least worrying thing about smartphone addiction. Even if you would want your kids to grow up to become developers, there's no reason why they'd have to "learn computers" when they're young.

Jensson 5y ago
This isn't about individuals but about society. The past decades the number of computer literate adults has massively increased, which is a good thing. But the trend is reversing since the basics you learn when you use a phone isn't nearly as powerful as the basics you learn when using a regular computer. There isn't much we can do about this trend, it will continue no matter if we want to change it or not. But talking about a trend and what consequences it will have is still interesting.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  Sadly one way to look at this might be similar to "the number of people who can drive an automatic transmission and change their own spark plugs is decreasing." Its true, but the underlying tech is changing too, so is it really a problem?
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Smartphones doesn't replace computers though, every office worker needs to know how to use a computer since computers has an inherently more powerful UX. Smartphones has simpler UX, but computers has a more powerful UX. Applications being able to assume that you have a keyboard, mouse and big screen really allows them to create way more powerful interactions while any tool made for a smartphone will be severely hampered by its UI limitations.
    - blacktriangle 5y ago
      Take a small example. Is Figma replacing photoshop for designers? Is Google Office replacing MSOffice? If these were to fully replace their local counterparts, then they would also obsolete the whole concept of navigating a file system as well.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      > every office worker needs to know how to use a computer Exactly, so more people than ever know how to use computers.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        Not sure if that is a joke or not. But if it isn't I think you greatly underestimate how many knew how to use a computer 10 years ago. Office workers aren't a big enough share to say that more people than ever know how to use a computer.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        What category used to have a computer 10 years ago but doesn't now?
        Jensson 5y ago
        10 years ago people used computers for things that they use smartphones for today, like doing banking etc. So the category is everyone who feels they need a smartphone today but doesn't feel they need a computer today.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        Assuming this is true. What is the benefit to society or individual of blue collar workers owning computers in order to do online banking? Seems like a great benefit that they don’t have to deal with all the unnecessary complexity. Being forced to learn enough computers to log on to your bank doesn’t make you more employable.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  All adults learn to use Word, Excel or whatever they may need for work, I'm sure they are not hampered in this by not having used computers when young. I mean, what's the societal benefit from young people "knowing how to use computers"? It's not like they won't learn when they enter university. Also, I don't think the claim is even true, where I live kids have to use computers every day in school from around 10 years old.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up. Share of homes with computers is going down if you don't count smartphones. This means that less kids who wants to do things with computers will be able to do it. > It's not like they won't learn when they enter university. That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Soon people will probably assume you don't know how to use a computer if you didn't go to college.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      > Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies. > That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Do you have any support at all for these statements? It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies. Society is built out of people; people are in large part built out of their hobbies as kids. TL;DR: You're wrong. > It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite. My kid has had a laptop for school work since he started högstadiet (9th year), and is addicted not to Fortnite but, uh, "CS GO" I think (though on another laptop)... And (despite my occasional attempts to impart some knowledge) he knows fuck-all about what we would consider basic computer usage. TL;DR: You're still wrong.
- duskwuff 5y ago
  > There isn't much we can do about this trend... Sure there is! We can start making an actual organized attempt to teach computer literacy in schools. We've been leaning on "children will learn this stuff on their own" for too long, and the result has been that students from less privileged backgrounds often never learned it -- it's about time we fixed that.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    You're almost exactly right -- the only thing you're wrong on, IMO, is "students from less privileged backgrounds". Because AFAICS, it's students from more privileged backgrounds too.

Jensson 5y ago

This isn't about individuals but about society. The past decades the number of computer literate adults has massively increased, which is a good thing. But the trend is reversing since the basics you learn when you use a phone isn't nearly as powerful as the basics you learn when using a regular computer. There isn't much we can do about this trend, it will continue no matter if we want to change it or not. But talking about a trend and what consequences it will have is still interesting.

blacktriangle 5y ago
Sadly one way to look at this might be similar to "the number of people who can drive an automatic transmission and change their own spark plugs is decreasing." Its true, but the underlying tech is changing too, so is it really a problem?
- Jensson 5y ago
  Smartphones doesn't replace computers though, every office worker needs to know how to use a computer since computers has an inherently more powerful UX. Smartphones has simpler UX, but computers has a more powerful UX. Applications being able to assume that you have a keyboard, mouse and big screen really allows them to create way more powerful interactions while any tool made for a smartphone will be severely hampered by its UI limitations.
  - blacktriangle 5y ago
    Take a small example. Is Figma replacing photoshop for designers? Is Google Office replacing MSOffice? If these were to fully replace their local counterparts, then they would also obsolete the whole concept of navigating a file system as well.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    > every office worker needs to know how to use a computer Exactly, so more people than ever know how to use computers.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Not sure if that is a joke or not. But if it isn't I think you greatly underestimate how many knew how to use a computer 10 years ago. Office workers aren't a big enough share to say that more people than ever know how to use a computer.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        What category used to have a computer 10 years ago but doesn't now?
        Jensson 5y ago
        10 years ago people used computers for things that they use smartphones for today, like doing banking etc. So the category is everyone who feels they need a smartphone today but doesn't feel they need a computer today.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        Assuming this is true. What is the benefit to society or individual of blue collar workers owning computers in order to do online banking? Seems like a great benefit that they don’t have to deal with all the unnecessary complexity. Being forced to learn enough computers to log on to your bank doesn’t make you more employable.
Grustaf 5y ago
All adults learn to use Word, Excel or whatever they may need for work, I'm sure they are not hampered in this by not having used computers when young. I mean, what's the societal benefit from young people "knowing how to use computers"? It's not like they won't learn when they enter university. Also, I don't think the claim is even true, where I live kids have to use computers every day in school from around 10 years old.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up. Share of homes with computers is going down if you don't count smartphones. This means that less kids who wants to do things with computers will be able to do it. > It's not like they won't learn when they enter university. That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Soon people will probably assume you don't know how to use a computer if you didn't go to college.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    > Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies. > That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Do you have any support at all for these statements? It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies. Society is built out of people; people are in large part built out of their hobbies as kids. TL;DR: You're wrong. > It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite. My kid has had a laptop for school work since he started högstadiet (9th year), and is addicted not to Fortnite but, uh, "CS GO" I think (though on another laptop)... And (despite my occasional attempts to impart some knowledge) he knows fuck-all about what we would consider basic computer usage. TL;DR: You're still wrong.
duskwuff 5y ago
> There isn't much we can do about this trend... Sure there is! We can start making an actual organized attempt to teach computer literacy in schools. We've been leaning on "children will learn this stuff on their own" for too long, and the result has been that students from less privileged backgrounds often never learned it -- it's about time we fixed that.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  You're almost exactly right -- the only thing you're wrong on, IMO, is "students from less privileged backgrounds". Because AFAICS, it's students from more privileged backgrounds too.