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Users would need an order of magnitude superior alternative, and most critically, users would need to move en mass. Yeah. Network effect. Arguably no

Users would need an order of magnitude superior alternative, and most critically, users would need to move en mass. Yeah. Network effect. Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. I dislike FB for all of the usual reasons, plus a few of my own. But I still have an FB account. I don't check it very often, and I've got notifications turned off. But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. History tells us that something eventually will replace it. But, it's hard to imagine.

wayoutthere 5y ago
> But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. That used to be a fear of mine, but after deleting my account I’ve found it to be a core feature. It forces me to be intentional with my relationships; if I want to stay in touch with someone I have to make the effort. Otherwise, the relationship is likely more parasocial than actively rewarding, and I’m consciously ok focusing my energies on the people I currently want in my life to the exclusion of those relationships that have slipped into parasocial territory.
- baby 5y ago
  I just can't imagine doing this. Facebook is the only way to keep in touch with many people around me.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  That sounds like a healthy place to be -- congrats on achieving that. I've largely achieved that as well, I think. Slightly different road traveled, perhaps. I have a larger than average extended family: a dozen aunts/uncles and a corresponding number of cousins. It's impossible to have a close relationship with all of them, but I do enjoy keeping up with how they're doing and knowing when big life events (and deaths) happen. So, my day-to-day life has absolutely nothing to do with FB. I've got notifications off and I typically feel no desire to check it. Instead I'm focused on my much smaller number of intentional, meaningful relationships. But, from time to time I do enjoy scrolling through FB and seeing how so-and-so is doing. Do you have an extended family you keep in touch with? Do you keep up with them through other means, or have you just sort of let them fade from your life?
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    I have a similar sized extended family, but I’ve honestly let them fade from my life. I’m old enough that the weddings and babies era is long behind us and we’re scattered all over the country. All I care to get I get from my mom, which is nice because it gives us something to talk about. I have surrounded myself with chosen family and am always meeting new people. I give generously of myself to the people in my life because it brings me joy to do so. It’s a conscious trade off that means I lose touch with some people, and I’m ok with that. Most relationships should have an expiration date anyway; far too many people just go through the motions out of a sense of obligation.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Agree. Everyone who is on Facebook has email, and a mobile phone. If sending (or answering) an email or a text message or making a phone call is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    You could say that about any medium. "If writing them a physical letter is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?" That sounds strawman-y, but I have a (annoying) family member who legitimately expresses this thought regularly.
- RandallBrown 5y ago
  Being able to passively keep in touch with many of the thousands of people I've met in my life is incredibly valuable to me. It feels incredibly sad to just let those relationships die because you're focusing your energies on the people that are currently around you.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    I think the sad part was realizing those relationships had died long ago, and that being friends on Facebook just makes it feel like they haven’t. It pushes into that parasocial territory which IMO is the biggest problem with social media: if our need for human connection is hunger, parasocial relationships are counterfeit food that makes you feel full but contains no calories.
  - Frondo 5y ago
    Not trying to nitpick, and not arguing with the sense of sadness you feel -- I sympathize -- but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," the level of familiarity beneath acquaintance that we know because we met them once and then know only what they post in one social media database or another. Also, to be honest, I felt the way you did before I deleted a twitter account with about 2k following and 10k followers. I felt like it was dominating my attention, and that made me mad. In a fit of pique I deleted it and it's almost funny how quickly I realized I didn't know any of them, and the passive consumption of their social media database entries was scratching some kind of itch but the same one I get from e.g. binging Star Trek series. Very strange all around.
    - JohnBooty 5y ago
      but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," Well, strictly speaking... it's a relationship, just a very casual kind. They are not intrinsically bad. The healthiness of it can vary widely. It's a very individual thing. The relevant questions to ask one's self would include: overall, is this bringing me happiness? Are my "casual relationships" on FB causing me anxiety -- either directly, or because of more subtle FOMO, etc? Are they taking time away from other things that would make my life better, such as more meaningful relationships? There is a happy path there. I genuinely like seeing that so-and-so from high school just had a baby, or whatever. "We sat through so many classes together," I think. "She was always cool to me. Good for her, she seems happy. Cute baby!" I might never really be close to her again, but I do like seeing that she's doing well. I seem to be in the minority though. Maybe FB is like cocaine. Seems like some people manage to use it occasionally without damaging their bodies or lives. But the vast majority of people are worse off for it.
- amatecha 5y ago
  Yeah, I haven't deleted my account, but I don't log in anymore (and blocked all FB-related domains on my Pi-Hole). I still keep in touch with a lot of people, but it's definitely challenging. I've just totally lost contact with TONS of people, ones who I'd love to keep talking with here and there. I accept the "loss" and do what I can to regain contact with people. Drag them kicking & screaming to stuff like Signal, Matrix, Mastodon, etc. Honestly I focus even harder on these alternatives because I think they are more important than ever.
  - YarickR2 5y ago
    Typical case of spitting against the wind
  - shimonabi 5y ago
    I log in ocassionaly to see the job ads on a special developers page for my country, but I unfollowed the feeds of all my "friends". I didn't "unfriend" them, I just don't want to see their stupid stuff.
ignoramous 5y ago
> Yeah. Network effect. Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. Facebook's network effect was overwhelmed twice, once by instagram and again by whatsapp... shame both those ended up squarely in Facebook's court. Remains to be seen how much dent can TikTok / Twitch / YouTube / Snap / Azar / Telegram can make on to that once-in-a-generation trifecta.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > once-in-a-generation That's why Facebook is investing in VR. Not because they're optimistic about it, or because they want to own the space, but because it's the closest horizon that has the potential to fundamentally change interaction. If it does, they have a foot in the door and can flood resources into it. If it doesn't, small price to pay for hedging an existential threat.
- oarabbus_ 5y ago
  >Facebook's network effect was overwhelmed twice, once by instagram and again by whatsapp This doesn't seem accurate, do you have evidence to back up this claim? Instagram had 30 million users and no revenue upon acquisition. Facebook had over a billion, and billions in revenues.
  - worthless-trash 5y ago
    I believe this is based on the writers perception, not reality. I can argue that my friends now use all use email, eclipsing facebook, whatsapp and instagram, better buy those stocks in SMTP. ;)
    - ignoramous 5y ago
      Perception, yes: https://stratechery.com/2020/social-networking-2-0/ https://stratechery.com/2020/social-networking-2-0/
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Growth, and especially growth in younger demographics, is probably the metric Facebook was looking at.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. Email, probably.
- soylentcola 5y ago
  But you can switch email hosts or roll your own. With some more modern problems (getting marked as spam if you're not recognized) aside, you weren't forced to keep using your @aol.com or @yahoo.com or @hotmail.com accounts in order to communicate with people on those services via email. With Facebook, it doesn't matter how much you dislike the company or how good some competitor is. You still can't talk with people on Facebook (and often, even view content) without being logged into an active Facebook account.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    Arguably, Gmail is currently the email provider with the strongest network effect due to all the ways it ties in to Android and the rest of the Google ecosystem. Worth noting that Gmail also 'solved' spam, which was the strongest reason to change email addresses/providers.
    - JohnBooty 5y ago
      Those are powerful reasons to stick to Gmail. One is a legitimately good and useful feature; the other is a rather shady attempt at artificial lock-in, IMO. But neither of those things are network effect. "Network effect" refers specifically to "the phenomenon by which the value or utility a user derives from a good or service depends on the number of users of compatible products."
      - webmaven 5y ago
        > But neither of those things are network effect > "Network effect" refers specifically to "the phenomenon by which the value or utility a user derives from a good or service depends on the number of users of compatible products." Sorry, I skipped a couple of logical steps. Gmail/Google accounts are a namespace where the identifiers are persistent long-term, thus the ordinary network effect that email has is undiminished, unlike previous email providers where you had to change the account every so often largely to cope with spam. [0][1] Also, Gmail participates in the associated network effect of every Google service that has one, and there are quite a few, though Google has a bad habit of killing them off. [0] The idea being that you're trying to reduce the email network's utility for spammers to reach you more than you're reducing it for yourself to be reached by non-spammers, which is like chemo killing the cancer faster than it kills you. [1] Spam per-se wasn't the only reason, of course. In the Before Times I had to change my address due to a few older relatives repeatedly setting in motion endless Reply-All storms / email chain letters, and of course I also changed ISPs occasionally.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. I don't use FB but I would imagine if I did and I wanted to get off it and there were dozens of people I wanted to keep in touch with but would lose touch with I would send these dozens of people a message a week before, saying "I am going to get off facebook, can you send me your email / phone number, my number is X, as I would like to maintain contact." Or does FB not allow you to do that?
- afavour 5y ago
  Facebook socialising is a lot less direct than an email. I see Instagram photos and the like from friends and enjoy it but if they all emailed those photos to me every day I’d feel overwhelmed by the experience. In any case, they wouldn’t do that anyway, because they’re already posting to Instagram because that’s where all their other friends are.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Yeah, I'd do that as well. I've seen others do it. But people might not see your "hey, leaving FB post." They might not check FB often. Or it just kind of gets buried. etc. Phone numbers and emails change, though. "Contact rot" happens. So, I don't know. I guess I like to have multiple ways to contact people. This is all predicated on the fact that FB is absolutely not a distraction to me. I look at it maybe once or twice a month. I have all notifications turned off. So, it is not a drain on my (fragile) attention span. Maybe most importantly, a lot of the folks I keep up with on FB aren't necessarily people I talk to directly. We would not really be keeping up by email/phone/letter/whatever. Some people see that as evidence that, hey, those are obviously people you don't need in your life. Perhaps that's true for some. For me, I enjoy having acquaintances as well as friends.
chadlavi 5y ago
You don't actually care about those people if the only way you have of contacting them is Facebook. Just pull the trigger and dump it.
- eropple 5y ago
  This is a profoundly presumptuous and shitty claim. Some people use Facebook to communicate. To not use Messenger is to not communicate with them. And some of us like people. Sorry?
elzbardico 5y ago
The problem is, that only an engaged user is valuable for a facebook advertiser. What will be the point in putting ads on facebook when most users use it like you do today?

wayoutthere 5y ago

> But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. That used to be a fear of mine, but after deleting my account I’ve found it to be a core feature. It forces me to be intentional with my relationships; if I want to stay in touch with someone I have to make the effort. Otherwise, the relationship is likely more parasocial than actively rewarding, and I’m consciously ok focusing my energies on the people I currently want in my life to the exclusion of those relationships that have slipped into parasocial territory.

baby 5y ago
I just can't imagine doing this. Facebook is the only way to keep in touch with many people around me.
JohnBooty 5y ago
That sounds like a healthy place to be -- congrats on achieving that. I've largely achieved that as well, I think. Slightly different road traveled, perhaps. I have a larger than average extended family: a dozen aunts/uncles and a corresponding number of cousins. It's impossible to have a close relationship with all of them, but I do enjoy keeping up with how they're doing and knowing when big life events (and deaths) happen. So, my day-to-day life has absolutely nothing to do with FB. I've got notifications off and I typically feel no desire to check it. Instead I'm focused on my much smaller number of intentional, meaningful relationships. But, from time to time I do enjoy scrolling through FB and seeing how so-and-so is doing. Do you have an extended family you keep in touch with? Do you keep up with them through other means, or have you just sort of let them fade from your life?
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  I have a similar sized extended family, but I’ve honestly let them fade from my life. I’m old enough that the weddings and babies era is long behind us and we’re scattered all over the country. All I care to get I get from my mom, which is nice because it gives us something to talk about. I have surrounded myself with chosen family and am always meeting new people. I give generously of myself to the people in my life because it brings me joy to do so. It’s a conscious trade off that means I lose touch with some people, and I’m ok with that. Most relationships should have an expiration date anyway; far too many people just go through the motions out of a sense of obligation.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Agree. Everyone who is on Facebook has email, and a mobile phone. If sending (or answering) an email or a text message or making a phone call is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  You could say that about any medium. "If writing them a physical letter is too much work, what kind of friendship are you really worried about maintaining?" That sounds strawman-y, but I have a (annoying) family member who legitimately expresses this thought regularly.
RandallBrown 5y ago
Being able to passively keep in touch with many of the thousands of people I've met in my life is incredibly valuable to me. It feels incredibly sad to just let those relationships die because you're focusing your energies on the people that are currently around you.
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  I think the sad part was realizing those relationships had died long ago, and that being friends on Facebook just makes it feel like they haven’t. It pushes into that parasocial territory which IMO is the biggest problem with social media: if our need for human connection is hunger, parasocial relationships are counterfeit food that makes you feel full but contains no calories.
- Frondo 5y ago
  Not trying to nitpick, and not arguing with the sense of sadness you feel -- I sympathize -- but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," the level of familiarity beneath acquaintance that we know because we met them once and then know only what they post in one social media database or another. Also, to be honest, I felt the way you did before I deleted a twitter account with about 2k following and 10k followers. I felt like it was dominating my attention, and that made me mad. In a fit of pique I deleted it and it's almost funny how quickly I realized I didn't know any of them, and the passive consumption of their social media database entries was scratching some kind of itch but the same one I get from e.g. binging Star Trek series. Very strange all around.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    but I wouldn't call "passively keeping in touch" with thousands of people "relationships." It's something, but I'm not sure what, it seems like we may not have a good word for "casual strangers," Well, strictly speaking... it's a relationship, just a very casual kind. They are not intrinsically bad. The healthiness of it can vary widely. It's a very individual thing. The relevant questions to ask one's self would include: overall, is this bringing me happiness? Are my "casual relationships" on FB causing me anxiety -- either directly, or because of more subtle FOMO, etc? Are they taking time away from other things that would make my life better, such as more meaningful relationships? There is a happy path there. I genuinely like seeing that so-and-so from high school just had a baby, or whatever. "We sat through so many classes together," I think. "She was always cool to me. Good for her, she seems happy. Cute baby!" I might never really be close to her again, but I do like seeing that she's doing well. I seem to be in the minority though. Maybe FB is like cocaine. Seems like some people manage to use it occasionally without damaging their bodies or lives. But the vast majority of people are worse off for it.
amatecha 5y ago
Yeah, I haven't deleted my account, but I don't log in anymore (and blocked all FB-related domains on my Pi-Hole). I still keep in touch with a lot of people, but it's definitely challenging. I've just totally lost contact with TONS of people, ones who I'd love to keep talking with here and there. I accept the "loss" and do what I can to regain contact with people. Drag them kicking & screaming to stuff like Signal, Matrix, Mastodon, etc. Honestly I focus even harder on these alternatives because I think they are more important than ever.
- YarickR2 5y ago
  Typical case of spitting against the wind
- shimonabi 5y ago
  I log in ocassionaly to see the job ads on a special developers page for my country, but I unfollowed the feeds of all my "friends". I didn't "unfriend" them, I just don't want to see their stupid stuff.

ignoramous 5y ago

> Yeah. Network effect. Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. Facebook's network effect was overwhelmed twice, once by instagram and again by whatsapp... shame both those ended up squarely in Facebook's court. Remains to be seen how much dent can TikTok / Twitch / YouTube / Snap / Azar / Telegram can make on to that once-in-a-generation trifecta.

ethbr0 5y ago
> once-in-a-generation That's why Facebook is investing in VR. Not because they're optimistic about it, or because they want to own the space, but because it's the closest horizon that has the potential to fundamentally change interaction. If it does, they have a foot in the door and can flood resources into it. If it doesn't, small price to pay for hedging an existential threat.
oarabbus_ 5y ago
>Facebook's network effect was overwhelmed twice, once by instagram and again by whatsapp This doesn't seem accurate, do you have evidence to back up this claim? Instagram had 30 million users and no revenue upon acquisition. Facebook had over a billion, and billions in revenues.
- worthless-trash 5y ago
  I believe this is based on the writers perception, not reality. I can argue that my friends now use all use email, eclipsing facebook, whatsapp and instagram, better buy those stocks in SMTP. ;)
  - ignoramous 5y ago
    Perception, yes: https://stratechery.com/2020/social-networking-2-0/ https://stratechery.com/2020/social-networking-2-0/
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Growth, and especially growth in younger demographics, is probably the metric Facebook was looking at.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

> Arguably nothing on Earth has ever had such a powerful network effect as Facebook. Email, probably.

soylentcola 5y ago
But you can switch email hosts or roll your own. With some more modern problems (getting marked as spam if you're not recognized) aside, you weren't forced to keep using your @aol.com or @yahoo.com or @hotmail.com accounts in order to communicate with people on those services via email. With Facebook, it doesn't matter how much you dislike the company or how good some competitor is. You still can't talk with people on Facebook (and often, even view content) without being logged into an active Facebook account.
- webmaven 5y ago
  Arguably, Gmail is currently the email provider with the strongest network effect due to all the ways it ties in to Android and the rest of the Google ecosystem. Worth noting that Gmail also 'solved' spam, which was the strongest reason to change email addresses/providers.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    Those are powerful reasons to stick to Gmail. One is a legitimately good and useful feature; the other is a rather shady attempt at artificial lock-in, IMO. But neither of those things are network effect. "Network effect" refers specifically to "the phenomenon by which the value or utility a user derives from a good or service depends on the number of users of compatible products."
    - webmaven 5y ago
      > But neither of those things are network effect > "Network effect" refers specifically to "the phenomenon by which the value or utility a user derives from a good or service depends on the number of users of compatible products." Sorry, I skipped a couple of logical steps. Gmail/Google accounts are a namespace where the identifiers are persistent long-term, thus the ordinary network effect that email has is undiminished, unlike previous email providers where you had to change the account every so often largely to cope with spam. [0][1] Also, Gmail participates in the associated network effect of every Google service that has one, and there are quite a few, though Google has a bad habit of killing them off. [0] The idea being that you're trying to reduce the email network's utility for spammers to reach you more than you're reducing it for yourself to be reached by non-spammers, which is like chemo killing the cancer faster than it kills you. [1] Spam per-se wasn't the only reason, of course. In the Before Times I had to change my address due to a few older relatives repeatedly setting in motion endless Reply-All storms / email chain letters, and of course I also changed ISPs occasionally.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>But ditching my FB account entirely means I'd lose access to dozens of people I wouldn't have a great way of contacting otherwise. I don't use FB but I would imagine if I did and I wanted to get off it and there were dozens of people I wanted to keep in touch with but would lose touch with I would send these dozens of people a message a week before, saying "I am going to get off facebook, can you send me your email / phone number, my number is X, as I would like to maintain contact." Or does FB not allow you to do that?

afavour 5y ago
Facebook socialising is a lot less direct than an email. I see Instagram photos and the like from friends and enjoy it but if they all emailed those photos to me every day I’d feel overwhelmed by the experience. In any case, they wouldn’t do that anyway, because they’re already posting to Instagram because that’s where all their other friends are.
JohnBooty 5y ago
Yeah, I'd do that as well. I've seen others do it. But people might not see your "hey, leaving FB post." They might not check FB often. Or it just kind of gets buried. etc. Phone numbers and emails change, though. "Contact rot" happens. So, I don't know. I guess I like to have multiple ways to contact people. This is all predicated on the fact that FB is absolutely not a distraction to me. I look at it maybe once or twice a month. I have all notifications turned off. So, it is not a drain on my (fragile) attention span. Maybe most importantly, a lot of the folks I keep up with on FB aren't necessarily people I talk to directly. We would not really be keeping up by email/phone/letter/whatever. Some people see that as evidence that, hey, those are obviously people you don't need in your life. Perhaps that's true for some. For me, I enjoy having acquaintances as well as friends.

chadlavi 5y ago

You don't actually care about those people if the only way you have of contacting them is Facebook. Just pull the trigger and dump it.

eropple 5y ago
This is a profoundly presumptuous and shitty claim. Some people use Facebook to communicate. To not use Messenger is to not communicate with them. And some of us like people. Sorry?

elzbardico 5y ago

The problem is, that only an engaged user is valuable for a facebook advertiser. What will be the point in putting ads on facebook when most users use it like you do today?