5 ms·

I remember when I heard about the concept of "unlimited pto puts more pressure on you not to use it." At that time it was something I'd never considered and it

I remember when I heard about the concept of "unlimited pto puts more pressure on you not to use it." At that time it was something I'd never considered and it seemed smart and right to me. Fast forward five years and now I have no qualms taking PTO whenever I want. I like unlimited PTO. No one is firing me for taking PTO. I have my own definition of what a reasonable amount of PTO is in a year and I use that definition. If anyone has a problem with how much PTO I take, I'm sure they'll tell me. Personally I prefer being able to interpret the policy in a way that works for me. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

vxNsr 5y ago
Just curious, what is that limit? On avg, how many days off a year do you take?
- NegativeLatency 5y ago
  ~4 weeks
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    That's...a fairly low annual PTO for a senior level person in a place with quantified PTO, so if that’s your “reasonable limit” in an unlimited PTO environment, it seems to confirm the “unlimited PTO means less PTO” suggestion.
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Yea 20 days is great for jr level but if you're with the firm for more than 5 years or above manager level it's kinda low for how many days you'd get (and thus be compensated for if you leave)
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  I'm not the person you asked, but IMO, 25 days seems reasonable. That would allow for a week off between Christmas and New Year, two one-week vacations, and some extra days scattered around the year.
- corndoge 5y ago
  Usually ends up around 20-30 days
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    ah not terrible
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Traster 5y ago
I think a big problem with this is that you need to be on the same page as your boss. You might think 4 weeks is fine, they might think 2. But since some CXO announced unlimited PTO they're not going to tell you that they think you're taking too much, they're just going to channel that into your performance reviews and general feedback. In order for unlimited PTO to work you need an incredibly high trust environment which is very hard to create.
- corndoge 5y ago
  If they think 2 is fine imma refer them to the unlimited PTO policy! :)
  - Traster 5y ago
    Well sure, you can do that, but that isn't going to change their impression of you when they're doing your annual review. And it won't be "You took too much holiday", it'll be "I don't think you're bought in to the team" or "I'm not sure you've really delivered at the same level as other team members this year". It might not be fair, but I could definitely see that happening for some managers.
    - gnu8 5y ago
      That’s where you have to push back very rigidly. In an environment with unlimited PTO, that is a completely invalid criticism and can’t be accepted.
    - corndoge 5y ago
      Those concerns don't really apply to me because 1. My manager in particular would never do that, but even if they did: 2. I know how much I contribute relative to my team. If my manager told me I was underperforming - for any stated reason, but especially if I suspected it was for taking "too much" PTO - I'd almost certainly find a new team, because that just ain't so. To elaborate on 2 a little bit, it's worth pointing out that you're definitely more vulnerable to shitty management tactics like that if you aren't sure of your own market value. If your main point is that "unlimited PTO" can be a weapon in the hands of a bad manager, I concede that. But my counterpoint to "unlimited PTO is bad" is that, within the bubble world of tech, we as employees have so much power to dictate our working conditions there's very little reason to put up with any such bullshit in the first place. And most employers are aware of this right now.[0] [0] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2021-07-13/employers-bow-down-to-tech-workers-in-hottest-job-market-seen-since-the-dot-com-era https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2021-07-...
jjj123 5y ago
I’m glad it’s working for you, but there are a couple of additional things to keep in mind outside of your specific situation: 1) not everyone has the same comfort level asking for PTO. And that distribution is not random, so your company better be taking this stuff. Ex. How many days are under represented minorities taking off compared to the average? 2) Managers will not apply this policy equally. By making the line for what is a reasonable amount of PTO fuzzy, you give managers more power that bad managers can abuse.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > not everyone has the same comfort level asking for PTO. I don’t get it - some would be comfortable and thus would enjoy more PTO > bad managers can abuse That’s an issue of bad managers more than PTO policy
noahtallen 5y ago
Yeah, you’re right on. I think the article can be right sometimes, but at a good company with solid leadership and excellent culture, unlimited PTO is absolutely better than the alternatives. Here’s why I like it: - It’s self-serve, so I don’t need approval from anyone to suddenly take a day off for any reason. - I never have to worry about when to plan trips, as I can work around everyone else’s stringent time off policies. - I can see my friends and family more frequently. - I can take mental health days without feeling like I have to prove something to someone. - You don’t run into weird conversations with your peers about why you were away. It’s normal for people to take PTO. I don’t think there is any pressure from the company for me to take less PTO. In fact, I’ve experienced pressure from my leads to take more PTO. Any company which has informal limits on unlimited afk isn’t doing it right. Maybe their limit is 4 weeks, and they’re strict about whether they approve it. Well, they’re lying about the policy, so you could nearly say it’s not even a proper unlimited-afk policy. In other words, the bad examples of unlimited afk happen when a company doesn’t actually do unlimited afk. They just say they do. So I don’t think that should be treated as a critique of unlimited afk specifically.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
How much do you think is reasonable?

vxNsr 5y ago

Just curious, what is that limit? On avg, how many days off a year do you take?

NegativeLatency 5y ago
~4 weeks
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  That's...a fairly low annual PTO for a senior level person in a place with quantified PTO, so if that’s your “reasonable limit” in an unlimited PTO environment, it seems to confirm the “unlimited PTO means less PTO” suggestion.
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Yea 20 days is great for jr level but if you're with the firm for more than 5 years or above manager level it's kinda low for how many days you'd get (and thus be compensated for if you leave)
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
I'm not the person you asked, but IMO, 25 days seems reasonable. That would allow for a week off between Christmas and New Year, two one-week vacations, and some extra days scattered around the year.
corndoge 5y ago
Usually ends up around 20-30 days
- vxNsr 5y ago
  ah not terrible

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Traster 5y ago

I think a big problem with this is that you need to be on the same page as your boss. You might think 4 weeks is fine, they might think 2. But since some CXO announced unlimited PTO they're not going to tell you that they think you're taking too much, they're just going to channel that into your performance reviews and general feedback. In order for unlimited PTO to work you need an incredibly high trust environment which is very hard to create.

corndoge 5y ago
If they think 2 is fine imma refer them to the unlimited PTO policy! :)
- Traster 5y ago
  Well sure, you can do that, but that isn't going to change their impression of you when they're doing your annual review. And it won't be "You took too much holiday", it'll be "I don't think you're bought in to the team" or "I'm not sure you've really delivered at the same level as other team members this year". It might not be fair, but I could definitely see that happening for some managers.
  - gnu8 5y ago
    That’s where you have to push back very rigidly. In an environment with unlimited PTO, that is a completely invalid criticism and can’t be accepted.
  - corndoge 5y ago
    Those concerns don't really apply to me because 1. My manager in particular would never do that, but even if they did: 2. I know how much I contribute relative to my team. If my manager told me I was underperforming - for any stated reason, but especially if I suspected it was for taking "too much" PTO - I'd almost certainly find a new team, because that just ain't so. To elaborate on 2 a little bit, it's worth pointing out that you're definitely more vulnerable to shitty management tactics like that if you aren't sure of your own market value. If your main point is that "unlimited PTO" can be a weapon in the hands of a bad manager, I concede that. But my counterpoint to "unlimited PTO is bad" is that, within the bubble world of tech, we as employees have so much power to dictate our working conditions there's very little reason to put up with any such bullshit in the first place. And most employers are aware of this right now.[0] [0] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2021-07-13/employers-bow-down-to-tech-workers-in-hottest-job-market-seen-since-the-dot-com-era https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2021-07-...

jjj123 5y ago

I’m glad it’s working for you, but there are a couple of additional things to keep in mind outside of your specific situation: 1) not everyone has the same comfort level asking for PTO. And that distribution is not random, so your company better be taking this stuff. Ex. How many days are under represented minorities taking off compared to the average? 2) Managers will not apply this policy equally. By making the line for what is a reasonable amount of PTO fuzzy, you give managers more power that bad managers can abuse.

foogazi 5y ago
> not everyone has the same comfort level asking for PTO. I don’t get it - some would be comfortable and thus would enjoy more PTO > bad managers can abuse That’s an issue of bad managers more than PTO policy

noahtallen 5y ago

Yeah, you’re right on. I think the article can be right sometimes, but at a good company with solid leadership and excellent culture, unlimited PTO is absolutely better than the alternatives. Here’s why I like it: - It’s self-serve, so I don’t need approval from anyone to suddenly take a day off for any reason. - I never have to worry about when to plan trips, as I can work around everyone else’s stringent time off policies. - I can see my friends and family more frequently. - I can take mental health days without feeling like I have to prove something to someone. - You don’t run into weird conversations with your peers about why you were away. It’s normal for people to take PTO. I don’t think there is any pressure from the company for me to take less PTO. In fact, I’ve experienced pressure from my leads to take more PTO. Any company which has informal limits on unlimited afk isn’t doing it right. Maybe their limit is 4 weeks, and they’re strict about whether they approve it. Well, they’re lying about the policy, so you could nearly say it’s not even a proper unlimited-afk policy. In other words, the bad examples of unlimited afk happen when a company doesn’t actually do unlimited afk. They just say they do. So I don’t think that should be treated as a critique of unlimited afk specifically.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

How much do you think is reasonable?