11 ms·

> overt ideological propagandism As an outsider watching from across the ocean, the 2016 election (the race itself and its media coverage, I'm not talking abou

by qsort 5y ago

> overt ideological propagandism As an outsider watching from across the ocean, the 2016 election (the race itself and its media coverage, I'm not talking about the result) really hurt you guys. The NYT still does world-class journalism, but not even a paper with that kind of rock-solid journalistic tradition fully recovered from the moralistic crusade it had become. I don't know if that's a bias of my own (I'm open to hear a counterpoint!), but 2016 really stands out as an inflection point in my mind.

throwaway894345 5y ago
I share your perspective about a ~2016 inflection point, but the cracks were showing even earlier. I remember in ~2014 things like the Michael Brown shooting coverage across the board parroted activists' talking points which were invariably and conclusively disproven by the evidence (MB wasn't shot in the back as he ran away, etc). This isn't a wider commentary on BLM, although I think BLM coverage provides a really interesting perspective on media coverage. This is all to say that the phenomenon isn't fully explained by Trump, although I think the phenomenon really accelerated as a result of Trump (I'm not positing a causal relationship, if I had to speculate I'd guess it's an intense feedback loop).
- freedomben 5y ago
  From some articles I've read[1], and discussions I've had (aka mostly anecdata) I really think that it's because views among journalists are changing. They view "just the facts" as potentially misleading because just the facts can lead to incorrect conclusions. Adding in color words that have a touch of opinion/speculation in them is ok if it helps the reader to reach the correct conclusion. Tis is also coupled with a strong sense of moral obligation on the part of journalists to lead people to the right conclusions. [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/inside-the-new-york-times-heated-reckoning-with-itself.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/inside-the-new-york-...
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    But that requires that the journalist knows what the right conclusions are. They're skeptical about other peoples' claims; they're not nearly skeptical enough about their own positions.
goatlover 5y ago
Apparently the NYT grew by 400% during Trump's presidency. They fully took advantage of the opportunity.
- goatlover 5y ago
  Correction: they actually tripled their subscribers and hired more staff from 2016-2020, not quadrupled.
spaniard89277 5y ago
IDK if NYT has ever touched on a subject where you have insider knowledge, but it did to me. They framed and flavoured politically and event which was a result of purely technical decisions. NYT has also published pieces about my country that I'd hardly could classify as any other thing than undisguised activism. So I remain very skeptical. It seems to me that there's a wave of new journalism culture in all the west that it's not being challenged from the inside. Here in Spain journalist make their ocassional reunions, interviews and stuff and they moan of the low consideration people have about them, then they go back to their seats to write or record what is basically political activism.
- qsort 5y ago
  I'm Italian, I know full well what you're talking about, I have zero sympathy for "the public doesn't trust us" type of lamentations because, guess what, it's their own fault. What I'm saying is that papers like the NYT were at least trying to separate facts from opinions in their reporting. It's just painful to see such a healthy tradition become overshadowed by the political trend du jour.
  - spaniard89277 5y ago
    But are they? I dont read NYT often but everytime I do I'm able to identify the frame withouth much difficulty. Journalists have to write about everything, and they arent experts at anything. My hypothesis is thqt the lazyiest of em just become activists and make this a way of life. If you have any doubt about this, write any of the most common names in major publications in google and try find their twitter. Having good information is very difficult, and it typically involves paying for it, or accessing specialist publications, or niche ones. It is one of those unconfortable truths.
- kodah 5y ago
  When I was in high school, I was near proximity to some kids that CNN did the same thing to. They took what would've been potentially a decent, local, investigative story and juiced it. How? They baited kids, who didn't know these other kids or the events they were involved in, directly outside of my high school into saying something for the news report. The average viewer would never know all those kids they interviewed had no knowledge of what they were talking about and it has since flavored how I receive these "nightly reports".
Auracle 5y ago
Shortly after Trump won, there was a round table interview with different journalists from various media on NPR. They essentially all agreed that it was their duty to make Trump look as bad as possible, though they worded it slightly less audaciously. I distinctly remember them saying that they should no longer be objective. I think to those on the right the last few years really opened their eyes to how much bias there is in journalism. I wish more people on the left noticed it as well, though I’m sure some did. Either way, I’m surprised nobody has taken the opportunity to start a news source that actually attempts to be objective. Maybe it’s impossible, or maybe people just don’t want it…but I do.
- 1014E4EF49A0 5y ago
  > there was a round table interview with different journalists from various media on NPR. They essentially all agreed that it was their duty to make Trump look as bad as possible, though they worded it slightly less audaciously. I distinctly remember them saying that they should no longer be objective. Sorry but …you're gonna to have to back that up with pointer to some kind of records of this event .
  - Auracle 5y ago
    I'd love to, but this was years ago and I wouldn't even know where to look.
- badtoro 5y ago
  NPR has not run a piece critical of Democrats since Christ was a boy.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    IMO, NPR has drifted even farther leftward in the last decade. They used to be pretty middle-of-the-road liberal, but now they strike me as some woke variety of left-wing (a person's identity is paramount, tells you everything you need to know about their experiences, etc).
  - 5y ago
ferdowsi 5y ago
2016 was an inflection point because we had a particular candidate that built a movement that weaponized disinformation and falsehoods. Legacy media continually boosted Trump's profile as a curiosity, and was hesitant to outright call these falsehoods what they were, attempting to stick to outmoded journalistic norms that worked for politicians who only perform relatively minor deceptions. The reckoning was indeed severe, but it was deserved.
- Bhilai 5y ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted. What you said is absolutely true. Washington Post kept a lie tally for Trump and when he left office, the tally was close to 30K lies[1]. Also completely agree that the "both sides" coverage did not work as intended. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-fa...
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Can't speak for others, but I downvoted because the OP's explanation is absurd. Yes, Trump's absolutely a liar, but the absurdity lies in the claim that the media's "outmoded norms" (i.e., honesty, objectivity, neutrality, etc) inhibited it from calling out Trump's lies is ridiculous. Honesty doesn't inhibit an institution from pointing out one side's lies, on the contrary, honesty demands it. However, honesty also demands pointing out the other side's lies, and therein lies the rub.
clairity 5y ago
> “The NYT still does world-class journalism…” that’s ambiguously overstated. perhaps 1% of nyt journalism is “world-class”, meaning well-researched, investigative, and impactful. 99% is of the “moralistic crusade” kind of journalism, trying to influence the popular sentiment, rather than reporting on it. and while 2016 was an inflection point, it’s certainly been on a longer slide, observable during the 2008 financial crisis and somewhat before that.
Grim-444 5y ago
2015-2016 was the breaking point for me. Not an ounce of impartial journalism, they just wore their political ideology on their sleeve with no shame and did everything they could to support their position. They weren't reporting news, they were just pushing whatever propaganda they needed to prop up their ideology. I haven't watched mainstream media a single time since sometime in 2016, and don't plan to again. They lost my trust and I assume it would be many years and would require fundamental changes before I'd consider listening to them again, they're completely corrupt at this point in my mind.
handrous 5y ago
> I don't know if that's a bias of my own (I'm open to hear a counterpoint!), but 2016 really stands out as an inflection point in my mind. Cheerleading the Iraq War did it, for me. Especially for the NYT, but media generally. I sincerely wish them all the worst. Then again, journalists as stock characters in fiction have been morally grey at best for just about all of the 20th century, at least, and I think to a substantial degree before that, too. I'm not sure where the idea that journalists have typically been, or been regarded as, forthright and virtuous, in the past, came from. The whole thing seems like a fiction built on a very few examples from a narrow time period (Cronkite's usually cited, for example)
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I hear a lot of variations of "the media was never perfect", which is true in a strict sense, but dishonesty comes in degrees and that's what we're debating. In particular, while I did grow up with the media cheerleading the Iraq War, mostly that was just citing "intelligence sources". Now the media overtly lies about the contents of publicly available content (e.g., the Damore "Google Memo" or the Covington Catholic video) or it has a journalist wearing a gas mask standing in front of a burning police station with a "Mostly Peaceful Protest" caption underneath. Maybe my formative years were part of a relative anomaly in journalistic history--maybe journalists were always ideologically homogeneous propagandists and the last decade is naught but a return to form. In whichever case I know from experience it doesn't have to be that way and I emphatically reject the backslide.
ryathal 5y ago
2016 is when the majority of US news stopped trying to have any pretense of objectivity. I'd put the start of the slide closer to 2005 as a response to Bush winning re-election and calming of the post 9/11 fervor.

by qsort 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

I share your perspective about a ~2016 inflection point, but the cracks were showing even earlier. I remember in ~2014 things like the Michael Brown shooting coverage across the board parroted activists' talking points which were invariably and conclusively disproven by the evidence (MB wasn't shot in the back as he ran away, etc). This isn't a wider commentary on BLM, although I think BLM coverage provides a really interesting perspective on media coverage. This is all to say that the phenomenon isn't fully explained by Trump, although I think the phenomenon really accelerated as a result of Trump (I'm not positing a causal relationship, if I had to speculate I'd guess it's an intense feedback loop).

freedomben 5y ago
From some articles I've read[1], and discussions I've had (aka mostly anecdata) I really think that it's because views among journalists are changing. They view "just the facts" as potentially misleading because just the facts can lead to incorrect conclusions. Adding in color words that have a touch of opinion/speculation in them is ok if it helps the reader to reach the correct conclusion. Tis is also coupled with a strong sense of moral obligation on the part of journalists to lead people to the right conclusions. [1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/inside-the-new-york-times-heated-reckoning-with-itself.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/inside-the-new-york-...
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  But that requires that the journalist knows what the right conclusions are. They're skeptical about other peoples' claims; they're not nearly skeptical enough about their own positions.

goatlover 5y ago

Apparently the NYT grew by 400% during Trump's presidency. They fully took advantage of the opportunity.

goatlover 5y ago
Correction: they actually tripled their subscribers and hired more staff from 2016-2020, not quadrupled.

spaniard89277 5y ago

IDK if NYT has ever touched on a subject where you have insider knowledge, but it did to me. They framed and flavoured politically and event which was a result of purely technical decisions. NYT has also published pieces about my country that I'd hardly could classify as any other thing than undisguised activism. So I remain very skeptical. It seems to me that there's a wave of new journalism culture in all the west that it's not being challenged from the inside. Here in Spain journalist make their ocassional reunions, interviews and stuff and they moan of the low consideration people have about them, then they go back to their seats to write or record what is basically political activism.

qsort 5y ago
I'm Italian, I know full well what you're talking about, I have zero sympathy for "the public doesn't trust us" type of lamentations because, guess what, it's their own fault. What I'm saying is that papers like the NYT were at least trying to separate facts from opinions in their reporting. It's just painful to see such a healthy tradition become overshadowed by the political trend du jour.
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  But are they? I dont read NYT often but everytime I do I'm able to identify the frame withouth much difficulty. Journalists have to write about everything, and they arent experts at anything. My hypothesis is thqt the lazyiest of em just become activists and make this a way of life. If you have any doubt about this, write any of the most common names in major publications in google and try find their twitter. Having good information is very difficult, and it typically involves paying for it, or accessing specialist publications, or niche ones. It is one of those unconfortable truths.
kodah 5y ago
When I was in high school, I was near proximity to some kids that CNN did the same thing to. They took what would've been potentially a decent, local, investigative story and juiced it. How? They baited kids, who didn't know these other kids or the events they were involved in, directly outside of my high school into saying something for the news report. The average viewer would never know all those kids they interviewed had no knowledge of what they were talking about and it has since flavored how I receive these "nightly reports".

Auracle 5y ago

Shortly after Trump won, there was a round table interview with different journalists from various media on NPR. They essentially all agreed that it was their duty to make Trump look as bad as possible, though they worded it slightly less audaciously. I distinctly remember them saying that they should no longer be objective. I think to those on the right the last few years really opened their eyes to how much bias there is in journalism. I wish more people on the left noticed it as well, though I’m sure some did. Either way, I’m surprised nobody has taken the opportunity to start a news source that actually attempts to be objective. Maybe it’s impossible, or maybe people just don’t want it…but I do.

1014E4EF49A0 5y ago
> there was a round table interview with different journalists from various media on NPR. They essentially all agreed that it was their duty to make Trump look as bad as possible, though they worded it slightly less audaciously. I distinctly remember them saying that they should no longer be objective. Sorry but …you're gonna to have to back that up with pointer to some kind of records of this event .
- Auracle 5y ago
  I'd love to, but this was years ago and I wouldn't even know where to look.
badtoro 5y ago
NPR has not run a piece critical of Democrats since Christ was a boy.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  IMO, NPR has drifted even farther leftward in the last decade. They used to be pretty middle-of-the-road liberal, but now they strike me as some woke variety of left-wing (a person's identity is paramount, tells you everything you need to know about their experiences, etc).
- 5y ago

ferdowsi 5y ago

2016 was an inflection point because we had a particular candidate that built a movement that weaponized disinformation and falsehoods. Legacy media continually boosted Trump's profile as a curiosity, and was hesitant to outright call these falsehoods what they were, attempting to stick to outmoded journalistic norms that worked for politicians who only perform relatively minor deceptions. The reckoning was indeed severe, but it was deserved.

Bhilai 5y ago
Not sure why you were downvoted. What you said is absolutely true. Washington Post kept a lie tally for Trump and when he left office, the tally was close to 30K lies[1]. Also completely agree that the "both sides" coverage did not work as intended. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-fa...
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Can't speak for others, but I downvoted because the OP's explanation is absurd. Yes, Trump's absolutely a liar, but the absurdity lies in the claim that the media's "outmoded norms" (i.e., honesty, objectivity, neutrality, etc) inhibited it from calling out Trump's lies is ridiculous. Honesty doesn't inhibit an institution from pointing out one side's lies, on the contrary, honesty demands it. However, honesty also demands pointing out the other side's lies, and therein lies the rub.

clairity 5y ago

> “The NYT still does world-class journalism…” that’s ambiguously overstated. perhaps 1% of nyt journalism is “world-class”, meaning well-researched, investigative, and impactful. 99% is of the “moralistic crusade” kind of journalism, trying to influence the popular sentiment, rather than reporting on it. and while 2016 was an inflection point, it’s certainly been on a longer slide, observable during the 2008 financial crisis and somewhat before that.

Grim-444 5y ago

2015-2016 was the breaking point for me. Not an ounce of impartial journalism, they just wore their political ideology on their sleeve with no shame and did everything they could to support their position. They weren't reporting news, they were just pushing whatever propaganda they needed to prop up their ideology. I haven't watched mainstream media a single time since sometime in 2016, and don't plan to again. They lost my trust and I assume it would be many years and would require fundamental changes before I'd consider listening to them again, they're completely corrupt at this point in my mind.

handrous 5y ago

> I don't know if that's a bias of my own (I'm open to hear a counterpoint!), but 2016 really stands out as an inflection point in my mind. Cheerleading the Iraq War did it, for me. Especially for the NYT, but media generally. I sincerely wish them all the worst. Then again, journalists as stock characters in fiction have been morally grey at best for just about all of the 20th century, at least, and I think to a substantial degree before that, too. I'm not sure where the idea that journalists have typically been, or been regarded as, forthright and virtuous, in the past, came from. The whole thing seems like a fiction built on a very few examples from a narrow time period (Cronkite's usually cited, for example)

throwaway894345 5y ago
I hear a lot of variations of "the media was never perfect", which is true in a strict sense, but dishonesty comes in degrees and that's what we're debating. In particular, while I did grow up with the media cheerleading the Iraq War, mostly that was just citing "intelligence sources". Now the media overtly lies about the contents of publicly available content (e.g., the Damore "Google Memo" or the Covington Catholic video) or it has a journalist wearing a gas mask standing in front of a burning police station with a "Mostly Peaceful Protest" caption underneath. Maybe my formative years were part of a relative anomaly in journalistic history--maybe journalists were always ideologically homogeneous propagandists and the last decade is naught but a return to form. In whichever case I know from experience it doesn't have to be that way and I emphatically reject the backslide.

ryathal 5y ago

2016 is when the majority of US news stopped trying to have any pretense of objectivity. I'd put the start of the slide closer to 2005 as a response to Bush winning re-election and calming of the post 9/11 fervor.